Question on back tension, release...

[starshooter]

Please review this trailer- . I have lingering questions about the rear shoulder pulling back sufficiently on my draw to generate back tension on release. Also my DL ( draw length) seems to fluctuate between 27" - 26" ( watch the tip of arrow ) . Almost  yo-yo.
With my ASL longbow I pull only to 26" (42#) for which it was configured but with my practice recurve which is 35# @28 I seem to stretch out to 27" no sweat. Is this a function of the types of bows ASL vs Recurve or is this a function of lighter draw weights?

[moebow]

Star,  What style are you trying to use?  Looks like an attempt at a swing draw?  But I don't see that you are getting much (if any) back tension.  You seem to "fish around" for BT but... it doesn't look like you are getting it.

You have completely drawn the bow by the time it is up and you then have no room to transfer to your back.  IF using the swing draw, once the bow is up on target, your string hand should be ABOUT even with your bow shoulder and not clear back under your face.  Then IF the string hand is even with your bow shoulder, the last 6" or so will be accomplished with your upper string arm and shoulder.  It's not a movement to try once at full draw. Transferring to BT after reaching full draw is very difficult and largely why you are (as you say) yo yo ing.  Trying to find it.

I'm very much an advocate of the rotational draw but that is very different from what you are doing.

Arne

[starshooter]

I have been studying very intently your vid on rotational draw.
Been practicing all summer long and cannot believe that I am so far off the map.
I am not wanting to do the swing draw. I want to achieve full alignment of the “bones “ and rotatation of rear shoulder upon release. Very discouraging..,

[moebow]

OK, then raise the bow fully up on target BEFORE you start ANY part of the draw.  Then, turn your shoulders to point at the target, that's where you get half of your draw for free.  THEN the string hand comes straight into your facial references by levering the upper string arm and shoulder back.  You are levering your bones INTO the bow and developing BT as the draw happens not after.

Star, this is not easy and really is more understandable with an in person coach.  Not sure where you are in TX bu there are several good ones in TX IF in your area.

Arne

[starshooter]

I see the rotational draw as diagonal draw rather than linear. The purpose of which is to save a lot of unwanted muscle tension in drawing arm and drawing hand.  Shorter Draw length be easier? Heard someone tell me that once..
 

[moebow]

Yes, diagonal(angular) draw is the rotational draw.  But, when learning, make that "diagonal" from set up (lift bow to target, arrow at eye level) then with the string hand out from the body, you have room to draw "diagonally" directly to the head.  String hand moves in a straight line from out to in. At about a 45 degree angle.

Your current draw is nearly completed by the time you have lifted the bow and you have no room for the correct movement.

Arne

[starshooter]

That’s encouraging because that’s exactly how I see it! The next question would be
At what dL? And do I swing/ squeeze the rear shoulder back as if “closing the car door “ ? Before or after dropping the string?? I had no idea that I was morphing into a swing draw. But yeah, I see that now.
Thanks.

[moebow]

The "close the car door" movement happens AS you release, not before or after.

Your draw length is determined by the length of your bones once they are lined up.  You don't arbitrarily choose that, it is a RESULT of the lining up of the bones.  IF you find different draw lengths happening, you are not getting the bones lined up correctly or consistently.

So, As you draw and line up the bones, your hand will come back a certain and repeatable distance, THEN you set your facial references (many call this your anchor point, it really isn't) the bones lined up are.  You use BT to maintain the bone alignment then set your string hand on your facial references, WHILE maintaining back tension.  THEN, you "close the car door" and the release HAPPENS!

Arne

[starshooter]

So this will be same whether with a low poundage bow or a heavy poundage bow? Recurve or ASL?

[moebow]

YES!!!!!  A bow is nothing more than a place to grip and two "bendy" things on each end.  There is NO difference in the form, execution or function of any bow, other than what is in your mind and self image.

Arne

[Tom1958]

OK, then raise the bow fully up on target BEFORE you start ANY part of the draw.  Then, turn your shoulders to point at the target, that's where you get half of your draw for free.  THEN the string hand comes straight into your facial references by levering the upper string arm and shoulder back.  You are levering your bones INTO the bow and developing BT as the draw happens not after.

Star, this is not easy and really is more understandable with an in person coach.  Not sure where you are in TX bu there are several good ones in TX IF in your area.

Arne

For whitetail hunting from trees, I think there are benefits to raising the bow before the draw.1st off, you will have less movement in the presence of game.
Secondly, your limbs will be fully forward before the draw which allows you to feel if your bow limbs have clearance of branches, tree trunk, tree stand, etc.
3rd, for myself anyway, I have much better bow alignment meaning less torque if I'm pointing the bow in the direction of the target BEFORE the draw sequence. My aiming actually begins before I even put pressure on the string. It works well for me.
A swing draw in the stand?? Too much chance of being seen and also banging the bow on something during the raise and draw.

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk

[rutro]

  Hey Starshooter I've been shooting again for almost a year now. It's been a long time since I shot with any regularity. But long story short, I'd never heard of back tension. But after getting into shooting again and watching moebows videos and reading a LOT. I've finally started seeing results and accuracy like I never imagined. Simply amazing. The thing that has helped me the most is taking my time and going through the draw sequence slowly. Getting the bow hand up, setting the elbow. Then going through the draw to anchor point. Then if I do it right and the back tension just happens as does the release. I'm just now after a year beginning to get it right more often than not. I think it's muscle memory more than anything and that takes repetitions of doing it the right way, until it just happens with out thought. I can't thank Moebow enough for the videos and explanations, I've read and studied your posts until my head finally soaks it up and applies it. You can teach an ol'dog  new tricks.
 What I get a charge out of now is that first draw and shot of the day. I take one of those small orange stick on target spots and put it on a 3''x4'' sticky note and put it on my target bag. 70% of the time I can drill that 1'' spot on the first shot at 15 yards. That keeps me working at it because I know it'll get better as I practice..... and I never thought I would ever be that accurate or consistent.

[starshooter]

Thanks.. 15 yds optimal for me. Been spending a lot of time trying to master the rotation of the bow when drawing. Is the bow supposed to open up as I move from left to right and “ bring the string “ to my face at the same time?
I’ve contacted a coach and going to get a “remedial” lesson on this one aspect.
Going slowly  does help. I tend to eat too fast anyways. The

[moebow]

The bow should never move left to right for a right handed shooter; ONLY up and down on a vertical line through the center of the target.  The ARROW will point to the left before the draw starts then as the string hand comes into the face you will SEE the ARROW rotate into alignment with the target BUT!! the bow hand stays ON TARGET!!  The bow will turn in the hand a little but (did I mention??) the bow hand stays on target.  No left to right sweep of the bow hand/arm.

Arne

[starshooter]

Ok but what makes the bow open up when string comes to face? You speak of the 45 degree angle . I guess that string hand is out in front and away from me and that as I pull the string diagonally to me the bow will rotate a little bit in my hand?? 
I saw a demo from a vertical perspective using tongue depressors.
Is the diagonal path of the string what makes it for free?

I am  getting a coach first opportunity next week.

[moebow]

Hopefully your coach will be able to clarify this for you.  I show it in most all my videos but it does take some hands on for some folks.  There is really a LOT of information in the videos and a viewer MUST pay attention to EVERY detail to get it just from the videos.  The half draw for free is the turn of the shoulders but bow hand stays on target.  Then with string hand at ABOUT at bow shoulder position but OUT from your body (6 to 8 inches), it then has room to move in at ABOUT a 45 degree angle which in turn levers the bones into alignment, the arrow rotates into alignment and you have BT to hold the bones in alignment.

Not all certified coaches can teach this nor do some really understand it themselves but MOST should be able to show the rotational draw that is part of the NTS.

[starshooter]

He referred it as “angular drawing” . Same thing?

[moebow]

Yes!

[kenneth butler]

Moebow I did not see that until you pointed it out. I use a rotational draw and the bow and arrow comes from the left on to center. I am afraid that is exactly what I do,heave the bow to full draw and don't leave room for expansion. I am trying to engage the back from the beginning by using it to get it all the way back. I see I have a ways to go. Thanks, I have watched all your videos just missed this. >>>>-----> Ken

[Bowguy67]

I didn’t read everything here but start w a stringbow. Learn the back tension on it. What I see is is it seems like your pulling w your shoulder/bicep. Imagine your a kid on a school bus and someone is pushing you from the back. Force your elbow against that. In other words push your elbow back. If some stood behind you and applied pressure to your elbow (same direction as your shooting) and you pushed back you might feel the back tension. Now when you did that if the fellow suddenly moved his fingers your string hand would naturally come back. If someone is available to help w that try it out.
Another thing, don’t raise your neck/tip your head up  when you anchor.  Hope this helps