Fixed crawl?

[katman]

Right on target Roy.

Also if you miss your mark with a sighting system you know its your form being off. Shooting "instinctive" I never new if it was my form or aim that had the arrow missing its mark.

Couple years back I put a sight pin on an ILF rig, really helped me dial in my form.

[Morning Star]

I’m in the same boat, had no idea how poor my form was.  It was a bear getting past that many years of bad habits.  Worth it by far though.

[Roy from Pa]

Yupper.

Back in 1971 I joined an archery league.

There were 2 classes back then, bare bow and sights.

The majority of the bare bow guys were string walking.

That's where I learned string walking way back in 1971.

Shooting indoors in the winter at a 3 inch bull at 20 yards, maximum score was 300.

My best score was a 276, which was pretty darn good shooting without a sight.

A few guys today that I shoot with on occasion, still turn their noses up at anyone who string walks.

I just smile and shoot like I shoot the best.

[Morning Star]

What some don’t realize is with the 1” fixed crawl, the trajectory has been changed by the arrows pitch coming off the bow.  I hit the same spot at 20 yards as at 10 yards.  Slightly  higher at 15 yards as it is the high point of the trajectory curve.  So out to 20  the same aiming point can be used for hunting purposes.  The guys from “The Push” did a nice job explaining the details of this on their video,  which can be found on YouTube.

[bunyan]

How do I hit aerial targets with a fixed crawl? Or running rabbits? To each his own, but part of the appeal of traditional bare bows for hunting is the flexibility and fluidity of the bare bow in hunting situations where you may only have an instant to make the right shot.  Many of these aiming systems are fine in the target world or for "standard" hunting situations. But there are limits to what it allows you to do, just like any method of shooting a bow.  To each his own, and I want everyone to find a method that helps them make clean kills, but it isn't for me.

[bigbadjon]

How do you use a rifle sight on a moving target? How do you use a shotgun bead on an aerial target. It's exactly the same as aiming with your bow.

[Morning Star]

The gap and trajectory is so condensed that it actually has helped my instinctive shooting for those type situations as well.  The arrow elevated above my fingers allows for multiple comfortable anchor reference points.  I feel an instinctive shooter can benefit from shooting with a 1” pitch as well. 

[Don Stokes]

joebuck, Ol' Dan would be sputtering. But if he decided it worked, he'd advocate it. He wasn't afraid to innovate.

As far as my concerns, my questions have been answered. If the tillering is right for the hand position on the string, the limbs would deliver the energy in a proper balance. If you can still cant the bow without messing up the results, that's a good enough reason to make it better than sights. Hmmm, I could switch the limbs on that 40# Patriot takedown to switch the tiller... that redhead across the road wants to learn to shoot, and she can get that bow back... I feel an experiment coming on.

[Don Stokes]

A question about the conversion: Does your nocking point change? I use one, tied on, nock under. I don't like over and under nocking- Quillian again. He pointed out that you could find the nocking point by sliding the arrow up the string and not take your eye off the game. I practice that.

[katman]

Usually need a higher nocking point and 2 nock indicators since your fingers are well below the nock otherwise the arrow may slide down string. It takes some experimentation to get the crawl and nock point just right.

To shoot with the bow verticle or canted with a fixed crawl I tune so I can gun barrel the entire shaft under my eye so when canted the arrow will find its mark.

[flyonline]

I shot fixed crawl for a while, but changed to 3 under with a high anchor to get the same effect i.e. closer point on and 'gapstinctive' inside my first point on. Plus it's somewhat quieter as noted. Having listened to Randy Cooling talking about face walking and finding it quite easy changing my anchor finger, I now face crawl and gap for a further 2 point ons. I recently changed arrows and was able to work out my new point ons in about 15 min and shooting good groups almost straight away. Point ons are now 16, 24 and 30 yrds.

I really like the very similar sight picture and the very small gaps, and I have a piece of tape with each of the 3 p/o distances written on the bow so I don't get mixed up in the heat of the moment, and I have let down more than once because it didn't look right and realised I'd hit the wrong anchor. Arrows react the same for all distances because my hand doesn't move on the string, and I could easily shoot very different arrows out of the same bow. It also gives me a good indication of the flight of the arrow which for me is important shooting through trees/brush. Shooting instinctive I was never comfortable predicting where the arrow would travel even when I got reasonably proficient.

Was lucky enough to win a wooden recurve recently, but despite my best efforts I cannot get it to shoot nicely 3 (or even 2) under so I have to shoot split, but I just use exactly the same method as above.

It's not that hard to nock an arrow between two nocks without looking at it, but concede it would be harder in a thick glove in low temps!

[Lakerat007]

When I first got into trad archery I started with a fixed crawl and glad I did. It was much easier for me to see flaws in my form and make necessary corrections with a set point on. Since then I switched to instinctive cause I feel Very comfortable with it in a hunting situation and it's more fun for me. Deer season I shoot 3 under, small game hunting I shoot split. I feel all this was made possible by the confidence I learned with the fixed crawl. I see a lots of new comers to the stick get frustrated, so I suggest they give the crawl a try and most fare pretty good with it. In any case much rather see a guy shooting accurately with a crawl than throwing arrows all over the place cause the feel they must shoot instinctive.

[Don Stokes]

Lakerat007, I like that. I spent years of trial-and-error (lots of error) and then had a great mentor, which allowed me to develop my skill. I would have probably eaten a lot more venison your way!

I've done a lot of experimenting with nocking points and bare shaft tuning. I tune just a smidge nock high. I don't know the exact spine I need until I get the nocking point at the perfect spot, bacause a high nocking point bare shafts straight at a weaker spine. Now I wonder if I would have to go down in spine with a higher nocking point for the crawl.

[Sam McMichael]

I am fascinated by this thread, because I don't know anything at all about fixed crawl or string walking. Some criticize it, but I don't see why. If a person is smart enough to use such tactics effectively, then he is simply using his intellect to enhance his chances of making the shot, whether it is on a target or on game as opposed to using a mechanical sight. What's the big deal?

[Roy from Pa]

Sam, do a search on you tube for fixed  crawl archery.

Lots of videos on it.

[Doug_K]

It's just a traditionalist thing. Kind of odd, if I remember right reading The Witchery of Archery, Maurice and Will Thompson were basically gap shooters. Howard Hill was a split vision shooter, a blend of gap and instinctive. I don't remember Pope & Youngs shooting style, might be time for a re-read. These 5 people pretty much brought archery back to life in America after the invention of firearms. These folks are about as traditional as it gets for American history, outside of natives.

String walking is gap shooting, the archer just selects his gap on his string instead of at the target or riser.

[Don Stokes]

I guess my main concern in asking about this technique is that I'm fanatical about matching my equipment to get the maximum performance from it. I know that the most energy is delivered to the arrow when the arrow deviates as little as possible from the horizontal relative to the drawing arm at full draw, so it's imperative that the bow be set up for this style to minimize the inherent variation. Joebuck explained how he does it, paying meticulous attention to how his bow is set up and adjusting the tiller for the style, which is much easier with some bow designs than others. In order for me to do some experimenting I'll have to reverse the limbs on my takedown recurve to get negative tiller, and I can't adjust this bow other than that. If I try to shoot it three under without the limbs switched, it shakes in my hand and is very noisy. I don't know that switching the limbs will work; more trial and error. Another concern is that beginning archers may not understand that just any bow won't work this way at maximum efficiency, no matter how good the technique is for improving aim.

Plus, I'm a crusty old fart set in his ways.

[Doug_K]

Another concern is that beginning archers may not understand that just any bow won't work this way at maximum efficiency, no matter how good the technique is for improving aim.

This is definitely worth noting. Matt does a good job explaining most of the technique in The Push, but I don't recall if he touched on this. String walking is primarily a target system, where most bows are ILF. I also wonder how tune is effected going from a 40 yard crawl to a 15 yard crawl.

As for beginning archers & converts playing with it, most don't have the form or experience tuning to achieve anything near maximum efficiency as it is. If using an aiming system helps to nail down form & tune quicker, I'd say it's a good trade off.

When I converted I spent the first 6 months or so gap shooting with a recurve, though I didn't know there was a name for it, with pretty good consistency. Since then I switched to split for a couple years, then instinctive. Personally, as a hunter, I love the fluidity of instinctive on a good day. But I gotta say after 3-4 years of practicing strictly instinctive shooting with minimal improvement, my consistency probably would be better if I stuck with aiming.

Basically, what i'm trying to say is, I think a skilled & consistent instinctive archer is about as good as it gets for hunting. If the individual archer can't make it work consistently for him, I'd say don't be afraid to try something else just because of the "non-traditional" stigma. It's all traditional in my book.

[Don Stokes]

I think that all shooting involves aiming to some degree, because it's impossible not to see your arrow when you shoot. I haven't categorized my own style; I've shot for so many years that it just seems natural to do what I do. I deliberately line up the arrow with my target at some point in the draw, and adjust my vertical hold "instinctively" for the distance when I release. I don't try to estimate yardage, but subconsciously I am aware of about how far the target is, based on years and years of repetition. I don't judge gap or do the split vision thing. I just point the arrow at the target and shoot it. I don't think of it as instinctive, but maybe that's just a matter of semantics. Yesterday I was nailing the 30-35 yard shots, but I keep my hunting shots as close as possible. Too much can happen on a 30 yard or longer shot between your release and the arrow getting to the deer. One step can mess things up.

[Roy from Pa]

Don..

After reading and following this thread, anymore I am not sure what you want..

LOL

Just have fun and shoot the best you can with what you got.