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Author Topic: Hunting Advice: Questions and Comments  (Read 5909 times)

Offline LBR

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Hunting Advice: Questions and Comments
« on: October 18, 2018, 01:40:06 PM »
Honest and sincere questions here, and a few points to ponder.

First one has bugged me literally for years.  When there are so many real sources of information, why would anyone get their advice from someone who's barely if ever hunted and never killed anything with a bow?  Seriously.  I've seen it more times than I care to remember and it always just puzzles me.

Why would anyone think that tuning is "hardly critical" for hunting????  Besides affecting accuracy it also affects bow noise and penetration.

Even if you believe the above, why in the world are you hunting with traditional gear if it's your habit to half-a** it?  We hear all sorts of stories about wanting to "up" the challenge is why lots of people went to traditional bows for hunting.  We know that hunting with this gear is more difficult.  Why in the world would you want to handicap yourself further?  I've never met a hunter who said deer hunting with traditional gear had just gotten too easy, so they figured they would do stupid things like half-way tune their set-up to make it more of a challenge.  To the contrary, there are countless debates about how to get BETTER penetration!  Heavier heads, more FOC, heavier arrows, faster arrows...BETTER TUNING...

A perfect tune, or at least as close as you can reasonably get, DOES MATTER.  IT MATTERS AT AT 20 YARDS AND UNDER.  I remember being at the Lost Tribe club in Collierville, TN several years ago.  They had an "aerial" novelty.  Since space was limited, the targets weren't thrown very high and they had archery backstop netting behind the thrower in case of misses.  I was shooting a 66# bow and heavy arrows...and I missed several times.  Net stopped my arrows, no problem.  Rod Jenkins was there.  He was shooting around 40#.  He didn't miss many, but when he did his arrow WENT THROUGH THE NETTING!  Reckon why?  Simple.  Because Rod is anal about tuning, and very good at it.  He was getting better penetration with a bow that was at least 20# lighter, AND ON A MOVING TARGET (i.e. a hunting type shot).

Another "excuse" is "well, you will be wearing extra clothing, shooting from an unfamiliar position, maybe an awkward position, yadda yadda yadda...".  Here in Northeast MS we aren't even expecting a frost until mid November.  Our bow season opened October first.  I've been hunting in 80+ degrees.  I ain't exactly been wrapped up in wool.  That's what happens when you make blanket statements based on...well, I don't know what it was based on, but it wasn't actual experience or from actually talking to different hunters.  Imagination?  Even when we do hunt in the cold, there's this thing called "hunting ethics" that most bow hunters are proud to have.  That means you practice in the clothes you hunt in.  You practice from the position you hunt in.  You practice "cold" shots.  You pass on shots that require you to get contorted and awkward.  Pretty simple.

Then you have the claim of "empirical evidence".  What evidence?  Read it on the internet so it must be true?  It's true because some joker on the internet said so?  Someone who isn't even a hunter and never has been?  Hey, he said "empirical".  That's got to count for something, right?  Actually no.  Pulling crap from your imagination doesn't make it fact, even if you label it "empirical".

Why in the world would anyone think that tuning is important for punching paper, but not for hunting?  Targets don't bleed.  Targets don't go for days before they die when you make a lousy shot, or get poor penetration because some idiot on the internet convinced you that you don't have to worry about tuning for hunting.  Yeah, thanks internet.

I ask that the actual questions and points be addressed in replies.  If you want to attack the messenger and ignore the message, my e-mail is [email protected].  Knock yourself out.

Offline acedoc

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Re: Hunting Advice: Questions and Comments
« Reply #1 on: October 18, 2018, 02:04:08 PM »
I am located in a country with no actual bowhunting opportunities and very little permitted game shooting. That said I am also curtailed in my tackle selection as most archers here are competitive.

I had to rely on the forum to get my rigs in the ballpark. I have used all the recommended heads and tuning methods so that I can ready a "recipe" for an arrow that complements my bow and is accurate.
The journey was not easy and I had to re- evaluate my assumptions several times, in this I was helped by the old hands here ( not directly all the time but some people like Cyclic Rivers and big Jim Have been really helpful - shout out to Gary of DM custom and Mr Dan of toelke bows).
Now I am reasonably sure of what my rig needs to be and that I need help of more practice before I draw a bead on a live animal on safari. Also testing on carcasses has shown me the best performing broadheads I have in my repertoire.

The internet is an enabler, what it can't change is someone's gullibility or inability to rationally dissect facts.
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Offline LBR

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Re: Hunting Advice: Questions and Comments
« Reply #2 on: October 18, 2018, 02:15:54 PM »
Quote
The internet is an enabler, what it can't change is someone's gullibility or inability to rationally dissect facts.

Outstanding!  Short, simple, and straight to the point!

GCook

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Re: Hunting Advice: Questions and Comments
« Reply #3 on: October 18, 2018, 02:53:39 PM »
For me I want my arrows to fly right regardless of target or hunting.  Bare shaft tuning is something I do although my form isn't perfect and I have to weigh the results and temper that with broadhead flight.
That said, for me, you can be the best expert out there and if your method of delivery is insulting or not done in a manner the least experienced can glean from then the message will be lost.
On the other hand if you are friendly and offer help often with most of your info being helpful you may be better received even when your information is less reliable.
However I would hope one could reserve comment should they know they lack sufficient knowledge and experience to give solid information.
But regardless we have the opportunity to take it in or let it go. 
I let a lot go.  Even from this site.

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


Offline LBR

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Re: Hunting Advice: Questions and Comments
« Reply #4 on: October 18, 2018, 03:12:54 PM »
Thanks GCook.  I know that often people will prefer a pretty lie over an ugly truth, and that with many the WAY it's said can mean more than WHAT is said or even who said it.  I don't understand it...to me that's like choosing poison that tastes good over medicine that is bitter.  Makes no logical sense.  Grown folks should know better.

For me, I know I'm blunt and that can be received the wrong way, especially on a computer screen.  I just like to get to the point.

For information, I thought something as serious as hunting...killing animals...would be important enough to at the very least check out information sources before taking their word as the gospel truth...not just personally applying it, but running to defend it.  I know you don't have to have a kill record like the Wensel brothers or Dr. Don Thomas or Denny Sturgis Jr. to be able to give accurate information or have your own experiences...but when there's zero experience and the information is presented as if it's based on years of experience?  Shouldn't that raise a red flag, especially when it goes against logic and reason and those who do have experience?  All that matters is it sounds good and appears helpful?  That poison sure smells and tastes good...just ignore the fact that it's going to kill you or at least make you really sick? We need a "scratching my head in total confusion" emoji...

Online McDave

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Re: Hunting Advice: Questions and Comments
« Reply #5 on: October 18, 2018, 03:14:05 PM »
As everyone here knows, I’m sure, the traditional community is often criticized for wounding game.  Many compound hunters feel that people ought not hunt with trad gear, and probably many rifle hunters feel that people shouldn't hunt with archery gear period, except for the rifle hunters who also like archery hunting, of course.

We allow, even encourage, hunting with primitive equipment, including arrows made from reeds with stone points, where there is too much variation from arrow to arrow to do much tuning.

I think the bottom line is, we know we hunt with equipment that is not the most efficient way to kill an animal, and we accept that.  But within the limitations of our equipment, whether it is matched carbon arrows that can be tuned to perfection, or stone tipped bamboo arrows that can't, we have to do the best we can.  Going out there with equipment that is capable of being tuned and broadheads that are capable of being sharpened and purposely not doing it is unethical.
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Offline LBR

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Re: Hunting Advice: Questions and Comments
« Reply #6 on: October 18, 2018, 03:19:56 PM »
Quote
Going out there with equipment that is capable of being tuned and broadheads that are capable of being sharpened and purposely not doing it is unethical.

Exactly!  And promoting, advising, saying it's ok or "good enough" to do that is unethical too.  Why that is a point of contention is beyond my comprehension...

Offline acedoc

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Re: Hunting Advice: Questions and Comments
« Reply #7 on: October 18, 2018, 03:35:53 PM »
Let me try again !

I shoot Beman ICS bowhunters and axis and black eagle vintage. I have zwickey,  wensels , stingers, ozcut and tigersharks.
The ozcut were brought by a friend are more of a compound bow type head. I will use them for crows and rats instead of field points as they are not likely to perform on game irrespective of continent and species.

Now some one can say that I should use a grizzly stick or nitro or fmj shaft as the bowhunters ain't good enough. Zwickey are not as great the one piece machined bishops or other cnc heads.
The bow poundage will be another bone of contention regardless of tuning. I bareshaft tuned after 2 yrs of archery and had several robinhoods.
Now I realise my release needs a lot of work to get the best of bareshaft tuning.

When facts are repeated enough times people will believe them even though experience will point otherwise.
I had a tough time believing a full length Beman ICS would fly well with 200 plus grains up front - I was told to use 125!
Let facts guide you and make allowance for different forms and releases.
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Online Terry Green

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Re: Hunting Advice: Questions and Comments
« Reply #8 on: October 18, 2018, 03:38:50 PM »
GCook you're relatively new here based on your registration date, but since 2003 we haven't allowed much fake news.

If you see any fake news or such comments that you're letting go that you think her fake news or completely wrong statements  please let us know.  I'd like some examples of what your "Letting Go" . Statements like broadheads don't have to be sharp, nock points are useless, a shooting method is worthless and those who shoot that way are disciples, trashing the pioneers of our sport, etc etc....

Thanks... :campfire:
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Offline LBR

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Re: Hunting Advice: Questions and Comments
« Reply #9 on: October 18, 2018, 03:44:32 PM »
Acedoc, I understand.  That's a bit different that what I'm talking about.  Sometimes experiences are different.  Someone might have excellent results with a particular arrow or broadhead, another might have bad results.  That's just different experiences.

What I don't understand is someone with zero experience being considered and treated as if they are an expert in the field, especially when they are giving "advice" that is contrary to logic or actual experience.  Not only that, if someone dare bring up those facts...that the person giving the bad advice actually has no experience, and the advice they are giving is awful, there are people who will attack you for it as if you are the bad guy.  Need that "scratching my head in total confusion" emoji again...

Offline Al Dean

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Re: Hunting Advice: Questions and Comments
« Reply #10 on: October 18, 2018, 03:47:43 PM »
I read GCook as there is a multitude of information on here.  Some may work for you some may not.  If it works for you, use it.  If not let it go.  It does not mean any of the information is incorrect per say.
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Offline acedoc

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Re: Hunting Advice: Questions and Comments
« Reply #11 on: October 18, 2018, 03:50:21 PM »
Acedoc, I understand.  That's a bit different that what I'm talking about.  Sometimes experiences are different.  Someone might have excellent results with a particular arrow or broadhead, another might have bad results.  That's just different experiences.

What I don't understand is someone with zero experience being considered and treated as if they are an expert in the field, especially when they are giving "advice" that is contrary to logic or actual experience.  Not only that, if someone dare bring up those facts...that the person giving the bad advice actually has no experience, and the advice they are giving is awful, there are people who will attack you for it as if you are the bad guy.  Need that "scratching my head in total confusion" emoji again...
:banghead:
Is close enough , as a doctor I go through this everyday.
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Offline Al Dean

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Re: Hunting Advice: Questions and Comments
« Reply #12 on: October 18, 2018, 03:53:31 PM »
If close is good enough for some people, I respect their choice.
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Offline LBR

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Re: Hunting Advice: Questions and Comments
« Reply #13 on: October 18, 2018, 04:16:16 PM »
Al Dean, you miss my point.  I'm not trying to be the "trad police". Maybe this will make sense. 

If you had a serious illness, would you go to a doctor who had ZERO experience treating that illness and ignore countless other doctors who had lots of experience treating it? 

What if you didn't know that and that doctor spoke with you about it as if they had years and years of experience and knew exactly what they were doing...THEN you find out they had no experience?

Not only that, the doctor was just making up statistics with nothing to back them up, and you find that this doctor's remedy went against the advice of specialists in the field? 

Would you keep going to that phony doctor because you think they sounded good?

Would you defend that phony doctor and go on the attack when someone tried to warn you that they were a phony?

I'm talking about a phony pretending to be an expert when it comes to bow hunting giving advice as if he's killed all sorts of game with a bow and arrow when he never killed squat.  Hasn't even tried in 40-50 years.  Not just that, but it's lousy advice.  It's misleading advice.  It's downright false advice.  That bothers me.

Online Terry Green

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Re: Hunting Advice: Questions and Comments
« Reply #14 on: October 18, 2018, 05:10:03 PM »
Al,...someone saying that tuning isn't important is not a "close enough" statement... it's a reckless statement.

Chad is not addressing 'close enough statements' but blatantly false statements..... more like "not enough" statements

Too funny on the dr. Chad. I sure wouldn't want any surgery performed on me by Dr Close Enough

 :biglaugh:
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Online Roger Norris

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Re: Hunting Advice: Questions and Comments
« Reply #15 on: October 18, 2018, 05:43:48 PM »
Am I missing something? Do you folks really know guys with a "close enough" mentality in regards to bowhunting? I don't.

I tune my arrows to my bow, very,very well. That said, I have never been satisfied.
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Offline LBR

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Re: Hunting Advice: Questions and Comments
« Reply #16 on: October 18, 2018, 05:56:08 PM »
Roger, I personally don't know anyone like that.  I'm referencing a "guru" from a different site.  One who reluctantly admitted to me a few years ago that he hasn't hunted...since the 70's, I think.  He either killed a bunny with bow and arrow or witnessed one being killed and "lost his taste for it".

This doesn't stop him from spewing out "expert" advice as if he taught Fred Bear how to hunt.  It was his remark that perfect tuning isn't needed for bow hunting...it really didn't even matter, and "good enough is good enough".  I could (and have) list a LONG page of false and idiotic remarks he's made concerning bowyers, bow hunting, 3D, bows, and archery in general.  Remarks that I have personally seen.

If that wasn't bad enough, he has a troop of groupies that run to his defense and are happy to gang up and slander anyone who dares question their hero.

This absolutely boggles my mind.  I understand the old Ron White punchline "You can't fix stupid"...but this guy has a cult like following...and for what?  Because they think he sounds good I reckon...never mind he's never done anything of notice in archery, other than talk about it.

Not that there's anything wrong with not being a superstar in the field...most of us never will...but most of us aren't phonies that pretend we have done something either.  Most of us don't act like we are experts and dole out false and misleading advice to those who don't know any better and evidently aren't bothering to verify anything.

You aren't really missing anything...nothing important anyway.

Online Roger Norris

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Re: Hunting Advice: Questions and Comments
« Reply #17 on: October 18, 2018, 05:58:35 PM »
Roger, I personally don't know anyone like that.  I'm referencing a "guru" from a different site.  One who reluctantly admitted to me a few years ago that he hasn't hunted...since the 70's, I think.  He either killed a bunny with bow and arrow or witnessed one being killed and "lost his taste for it".

This doesn't stop him from spewing out "expert" advice as if he taught Fred Bear how to hunt.  It was his remark that perfect tuning isn't needed for bow hunting...it really didn't even matter, and "good enough is good enough".  I could (and have) list a LONG page of false and idiotic remarks he's made concerning bowyers, bow hunting, 3D, bows, and archery in general.  Remarks that I have personally seen.

If that wasn't bad enough, he has a troop of groupies that run to his defense and are happy to gang up and slander anyone who dares question their hero.

This absolutely boggles my mind.  I understand the old Ron White punchline "You can't fix stupid"...but this guy has a cult like following...and for what?  Because they think he sounds good I reckon...never mind he's never done anything of notice in archery, other than talk about it.

Not that there's anything wrong with not being a superstar in the field...most of us never will...but most of us aren't phonies that pretend we have done something either.  Most of us don't act like we are experts and dole out false and misleading advice to those who don't know any better and evidently aren't bothering to verify anything.

You aren't really missing anything...nothing important anyway.

Hmmm. Sounds like someone that I wouldn't get along with. Folks that "advise but don't do" aggravate me.
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Online Pine

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Re: Hunting Advice: Questions and Comments
« Reply #18 on: October 18, 2018, 06:14:16 PM »
.
It's easier to fool someone than to convince them they have been fooled. Mark Twain

If you're afraid to offend, you can't be honest.

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Offline kenneth butler

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Re: Hunting Advice: Questions and Comments
« Reply #19 on: October 18, 2018, 07:37:10 PM »
  I tune until by bare shafts are grouping with the fletched shaft. Then back up and make fine adjustments. Then I slap a big broadhead on a matching shaft. I may have to make minute adjustments for it. In the end, bare,fletched,and broadheads are going to the same spot. Every set of arrows has one with no fletching,for continued checking. I have one set of arrows I haven't even bothered to fletch. They shoot just fine. So I don't think I need more than a 3" parabolic fletch.
   I have no idea what all the fuss is about. It seems like we are preaching to the choir. If your arrows are flying point on with no wobble they will penetrate much better.  Note the high poundage bow not penetrating the arrow net but the lower one did. We all have to start someplace. If your cut on contact broadheads are shaving sharp you will have no problem.
    I do have a little experience. Hunting 5 deer counties most of my life. I am 77. Rice fields over run with feral hogs,a few javelina, a couple of antelope,truck loads of fish and gar,as well as 2 bears. I am sure that pales in comparison to some of you but the deer and hogs were pretty good proving grounds. I might add I have used 42 to 44 pound bows and never failed to get penetration. I do pull them an extra 1 1/2  inches though.
    I don't think I have said anything that hasn't been said before so why all the Drama?
     Thanks.  >>>>------> Ken

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