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Author Topic: Antler Point Restrictions and Traditional Bowhunting  (Read 26074 times)

Offline Soonerlongbow

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Re: Antler Point Restrictions and Traditional Bowhunting
« Reply #160 on: December 04, 2018, 07:04:15 AM »
While QDMA/APR have helped with some herds, and I mostly say agree in the general philosophy of it, I’m more concerned with the potential for legal over reach and over regulation. What happens if they decide to up it to 6pts per side, or moratoriums for a couple years on buck, some places require a doe first, maybe it’s two or even 3 does before a buck.

What if.....

That’s a big foot in the door that can be used for a lot of other things.
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Offline YosemiteSam

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Re: Antler Point Restrictions and Traditional Bowhunting
« Reply #161 on: December 05, 2018, 01:59:50 PM »
Maybe some of these arguments have some merit.  I'm not informed enough to know either way.  But it has a level of extravagance that I simply cannot comprehend.  Whatever you think, just keep it all in perspective.  Lots of us public land hunters in CA would gladly pay triple our already high license & tag fees for the does & small bucks many of you discard as unworthy.
"A good hunter...that's somebody the animals COME to."
"Every animal knows way more than you do." -- by a Koyukon hunter, as quoted by R. Nelson.

Offline Chain2

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Re: Antler Point Restrictions and Traditional Bowhunting
« Reply #162 on: December 05, 2018, 06:44:23 PM »
I don’t think any of us for APR’s are implying that young bucks aren’t worthy. We are saying let them grow up and there will be more and bigger bucks for all. Every animal that gives its life for my self and my family is most worthy.
"Windage and elevation Mrs. Langdon, windage and elevation..."

Offline Jon Stewart

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Re: Antler Point Restrictions and Traditional Bowhunting
« Reply #163 on: December 05, 2018, 10:31:04 PM »
I think this thread is  :deadhorse:

Offline Chain2

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Re: Antler Point Restrictions and Traditional Bowhunting
« Reply #164 on: December 06, 2018, 08:02:57 AM »
I’m tappin out
"Windage and elevation Mrs. Langdon, windage and elevation..."

Offline longbowman

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Re: Antler Point Restrictions and Traditional Bowhunting
« Reply #165 on: December 06, 2018, 10:27:09 AM »
We are loosing hunters every year in Pennsylvania.  The Game Commission is constantly saying, "What can we do to get and keep young hunters?"  So I have my 17 yr. old grandson and his 17 yr. old friend out hunting with me in bow and rifle season.  Both have bucks come within range but because they are no longer a "Jr. Hunter" they can't shoot because there's now antler restrictions on them.  Both of them said they weren't sure they wanted to keep hunting because it's not as exciting as before.  I have more than a dozen people I graduated with who always hunted but now that they are older have quit because they just can't count points as a deer is moving through the woods so what's the use?  If our 20-50 crowd, who grew up watching controlled hunts on TV, want to have AR's then allow them to do it but if you want hunters in the woods let them shoot a deer.  I had 30+ buck in to my stands this year and only 3 that were legal.  Think about being an excited teenager again and having that happen.  I wonder why the hunter numbers are dropping?

Offline BowDiddle

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Re: Antler Point Restrictions and Traditional Bowhunting
« Reply #166 on: December 06, 2018, 07:11:18 PM »
The area where I live & hunt needs restriction, both in antler points, and bag limits.

It wouldn't hurt my feelings if they went to a one buck (with antler restrictions), and one doe limit for the entire season.

These yahoos around here shoot everything they see, and the deer population, and quality has suffered a lot.

Offline Dennis Allan

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Re: Antler Point Restrictions and Traditional Bowhunting
« Reply #167 on: December 07, 2018, 12:16:42 AM »
   Longbowman   not meaning to offend here, but at 17. They aren't youth hunters anymore. I understand new hunters wanting to be successful, and they hopefully are. We want them to be.
     But, as responsible, ethical hunters. There are always going to be guidelines that must be followed. Always will be. Has to be.
      If they are seeing that many bucks in one season and not feeling good about it, well. There may be another issue. Lots of people in alot of places don't see that many bucks in 10 years.
      They wanna quit why??? Because they didn't get the chance to kill a buck. At 17 years old, they should know that it's hunting. Not killing. They are not getting it, the experience, the effort, hardworking, and time put forth, more times than not. Will not be rewarded with a deer to drag home.
      My opinion only. If the hunting season is only enjoyed if the end result is a kill. Well, they are going to quit anyway.
                Thanks
               Dennis

Offline John Cholin

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Re: Antler Point Restrictions and Traditional Bowhunting
« Reply #168 on: December 07, 2018, 01:23:08 PM »
I hunt PA, NJ and sometimes NY.  I think that antler restrictions are a good think.  My personal rule for bowhunting is 16" inside spread (ear tip to ear tip) or better.  I comply with the number of points on top of that.  I like the idea of not picking the fruit before it is ripe.  I'm a Brothers of the Bow fan.

The people that I know who oppose antler restrictions seem to be the folks that measure their satisfaction with the hunting experience strictly by whether they killed something.  I'm to old for that now.  I had dozens of skippers walk past my stand that kept on walking.  There are years when I don't take a buck.  That's OK.  I am in it for the hunt.

I think that hunter numbers are down because too many folks cheapen and pollute the hunting experience with commercialism and blood lust.  And the PA Came Commission is one of the worst offenders!  What are they doing allowing cross-bows, weapons that bear NO RESEMBLANCE to a real bow and boast 3 inch groups at 100 yards, to be used during the archery season?  Look at the ads that full the regulation digest!  It takes half an hour to find season dates because they are submerged in an ocean of ads for all sorts of gimmicks that you just gotta have if you want to kill something.  Why would a youngster want to be part of that?  I sure as h*ll don't!

When you put the hunt back into hunting, non-hunters become potential participants.  But all the commercialism and media noise drown-out what it is all supposed to be about.

JMC
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my best bow is my Bear Cheyenne.

Offline Jon Stewart

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Re: Antler Point Restrictions and Traditional Bowhunting
« Reply #169 on: December 07, 2018, 05:16:47 PM »
I guess my final post is. Obey the laws, don't get mad at those of us that like APR's as we didn't set the law the state did and if you don't like what the laws are then go to a meeting or contact someone by phone or mail. If the complainers don't contact someone then you have no complaint. I like APR's.  I  made contact with Chad Stewart and told him so.  I like them because we see MORE deer and not because we see bigger bucks.

And just an FYI. There will be more changes in laws. We just don't know what they are yet so if you are going to be mad, you are going to be mad for a long time. Not everyone is going to be happy.

Offline Jerry Jeffer

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Re: Antler Point Restrictions and Traditional Bowhunting
« Reply #170 on: December 07, 2018, 06:19:06 PM »
I hunt long bow right through gun season. I like the point restriction. I has increased the size of our bucks greatly on the property I hunt.
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Offline twitchstick

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Re: Antler Point Restrictions and Traditional Bowhunting
« Reply #171 on: December 10, 2018, 11:36:38 AM »
     Over the past few days I have been hunting and observing a lot deer and it got me thinking about your topic. I know that in Utah we manage for Mule deer not whitetail and it might not be the same. We use to have antler point restrictions here(3 point on one antler or better) and our DWR went away from it because of a study they did. They had studied one mule deer for I believe 7 or 8 years. That buck never became any bigger than a small 2x2 buck maybe 10" wide on it's best year. They would display this bucks antlers in their defense for many years after they canceled the restrictions at sportsman's shows and expo's.
     In the last few days of hunting I have observed at lease a 100 bucks and it has confirmed something that I have been seeing more and more. This is what I call the " Dedicated Hunter Syndrome".  In Utah we have a program that called The Dedicated Hunter program that allows you to hunt all 3 weapon type seasons, archery, muzzerloader and rifle.  You may only take 2 deer in 3 seasons. The DWR did this to give hunters more time in the field without killing as many deer out of the herds. People love it but I personally think that it has turned everyone into a trophy hunter with some side effects. Everybody has become a "inch counter" and will not shoot a buck unless it scores well. I now see a lot of big 2x2 and 3x2 bucks that are being passed up. These are not young bucks they are 3 to 5+ years old deer. Last night the only deer that seemed to get close enough to shoot (I have a antlerless tag) was a 27" wide deep forked 2x2 buck with 3" eye guards! I would age him at a 5 year old buck. I would say more than half the bucks I see on the winter range are mature 2x2 and 2x3 bucks with a few typical 4x4's around. If they are a 4x4 buck they are usually a younger 3 year old buck. Even on Utah's prized trophy units the Henry mountains and Pausaugunt have had to have management buck hunts because of the number of this type of buck.
     Now some food for thought. With our elk here most units are "spike" only units and to hunt the big bulls it is a draw system and a long wait. Here in Utah we kill a lot of cows and a few bulls. That is why we kill so many Boone and Crockett bulls each year. Some of these units are 50 bulls to a 100 elk ratios. I know I have had to pass on the 350" class bull of a life time and have to shoot the cow with the bull instead! I'm not saying I know the answers here but antler restrictions can lead to frustrations and side effects whether they are self imposed or by the the state. Being a tradition archer with limited time to hunt I don't think they are the way to go. Unfortunately IMO if we want more mature deer in our herds we have to limit the amount of hunters which can be frustrating also.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2018, 01:29:16 PM by twitchstick »

Offline longbowman

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Re: Antler Point Restrictions and Traditional Bowhunting
« Reply #172 on: December 11, 2018, 01:40:15 PM »
Dennis, no offense taken.  Both of these young men just started hunting, they didn't start at 12 or 6 like some people seem to.  They were excited to go at it again but after sitting in rain and then cold for two weeks and watching bucks that don't meet the AR's but couldn't shoot their rush was gone.  As much as we older hunters like to say there's so much more to hunting than killing a deer a young mind hears it but doesn't buy it, that takes years of experience.  More than half of the men I know that hunted their whole lives but are now plus 60 yrs. old have already quit because they can't count points as deer go running by.  There needs to be some kind of median for the seniors and younger hunters, that is if they would like to keep hunter numbers up.  Not saying I have the answers but was just giving my answer to the original question.

Offline Krex1010

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Re: Antler Point Restrictions and Traditional Bowhunting
« Reply #173 on: December 13, 2018, 09:43:00 AM »
So here’s my $.02 on antler restrictions...I hunt mostly in northern PA. Neither a hotbed for deer numbers or antler genetics. Almost 20 years into AR’s and I am a huge fan. Yes it can be frustrating trying to count points and ending up without a buck after seeing easy shots on bucks we used to be able to harvest.....going into Ar’s I heard my dad and the older guys complaining that we’ll never see a legal buck because all the deer in PA were spikes and y’s....and the first year our club got skunked on bucks. But after the first year we started getting a couple bucks every year that were once a decade bucks under the old rules. I’m not talking about monsters, just average 6 and 8 pointers. On average we get just as many bucks as before AR but they are now 2.5 year old and older deer as opposed to all 1.5 year old deer. The older guys always said all those PA bucks would always be spikes and y’s no matter their age and that simple isn’t true. In almost all cases, a spike or y whitetail is a 1.5 year old buck and in PA we were killing about 90% of our male deer every year, do the math...1 out of 10 1.5 year old bucks were surviving the hunting seasons. I know we all want to get a buck, and young hunters are easily distracted by other things but we have to be aware of the reality of the situation. Killing 90% of all male deer every year isn’t healthy for the deer herd. I used to see lots of fawns that were born in late summer because there simply weren’t enough bucks to breed all the does in the traditional rut. A 3 month rut isn’t healthy for the bucks doing the breeding and it certainly isn’t good to have 3 month old fawns entering winter. I don’t see nearly as many of those late born fawns now. In the old days for every 10 deer i saw, 9 were does and 1 was a spike or y....since AR’s for every ten deer maybe 5 are does, 4 are sub-legal  bucks and 1 is a shooter.....I like that dynamic better. I’m am no trophy hunter, if a buck is legal and presents a shot, I’m taking it. I shoot just as many bucks as before AR’s, but now they are just a bit older.

I haven’t hunted all over, my feelings are based on my experience in PA. If people want to quit hunting because they can’t shoot a spike or because they didn’t get a buck for a couple years, my feeling is that the point is being missed. And frankly, my experience is that the people who complain the most about not getting deer are the ones who don’t put the required time in the woods scouting and hunting. I know I killed a lot more deer before I had kids and a real job because i was scouting all summer and hunting a few days a week from October through January.....most of the people I know that complain hunt maybe 3-4 days a year and scout even less. Some years I’m in that category but I’m complaining i have no time instead of complaining there’s no deer. Anyways, my novel is over.
Happy hunting.
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Offline JBuchin3

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Re: Antler Point Restrictions and Traditional Bowhunting
« Reply #174 on: December 14, 2018, 09:12:05 AM »
Mr. Dudley is pretty spot on. 

As a MI hunter/Resident, a big problem I have with the APR/QDM push is their lack conceding any concessions in forcing APR on the populous, or do they have any interest in finding some middle ground in other forms of managing buck harvest with out managing Antler size at harvest.

Single buck Tag needs to be seriously considered by MIDNR first and foremost.  Revisiting weapons restrictions are another.   Timing and duration of the firearms season, both black powder and regular should also be considered. 

As hunters, we have pushed and continue to push the efficiencies and ranges of our weoponry in the modern day.  No part of what we do is immune from it, and if we continue to simplify and ease our mode of harvest, we will either hunt ourselves out of season, or game, all in the name of technology.
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Offline Overspined

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Re: Antler Point Restrictions and Traditional Bowhunting
« Reply #175 on: December 15, 2018, 09:47:12 AM »
I fully support APR because people have a habit of not being able to self-regulate, and every comment I read so far said “I was skeptical until I saw the results “ paraphrase quote..lol.  I can hunt Illinois or Indiana and get a crack at a 4+ year old buck in a few days, yet have only seen a few in MI in 30 years..and I hunt really good areas. And I’m speaking of traditional bow APR. It’s a great idea to get doe numbers reasonable and wait on good bucks.

Offline Overspined

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Re: Antler Point Restrictions and Traditional Bowhunting
« Reply #176 on: December 15, 2018, 09:52:37 AM »
Oh and it would help reduce poaching where people just kill buck after buck on other people’s tags (because little bucks are really easy to kill), pretty tough to do if there’s a limit on size. I knew people that did this when I was young so I’m positive it’s still happening. They’d kill 6-8 young bucks a season when the limit was 2, with the second having APR.  They’d never get to the second tag because they’re using everyone else’s tag in the family or friends who could buy one.

Offline gvdocholiday

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Re: Antler Point Restrictions and Traditional Bowhunting
« Reply #177 on: December 15, 2018, 04:40:54 PM »
The bi-weekly CO reports for the month of November, this was every other report.  Most common violation after baiting violations.

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Offline SteveB

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Re: Antler Point Restrictions and Traditional Bowhunting
« Reply #178 on: December 16, 2018, 09:20:06 AM »
Passing a 1.5 to kill it at 2.5 makes no sense to me. Mandating that all must pass 1.5's so my chances are better at a 2.5 even less. And at the bottom is targeting the best of the 1.5 and 2.5's because they meet some arbitrary standard of "big buck" when both are still years from maturity.

Education - not legislation - especially the feel good kind.

Offline Overspined

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Re: Antler Point Restrictions and Traditional Bowhunting
« Reply #179 on: December 16, 2018, 08:31:38 PM »
1.5 year old bucks are the dumbest deer in the woods. Horny, little caution, active, and come to almost any call, scent, etc. I don’t see why trying to protect them (as best as possible) is a problem. Sometimes a basic rule may weed out some nice young deer meeting minimums, yet overall really change the trajectory of a herd age class. Once a deer gets 2.5, they act entirely different.  It’s like nobody complains about the Colorado 4 pt on a side minimum on elk. It just makes sense to allow the dumb spike elk to walk..I’ve called in the same young deer, and young elk repeatedly. I’ve never thought...man I wish I could’ve shot that immature animal...

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