Antler Point Restrictions and Traditional Bowhunting

[mnbwhtr]

No

In SE Mn where I live it's 4 pt on a side. When it got passed there were no more than 54% of the people wanted it and one group pushed it through. I've shot enough deer that I only shoot bigger bucks or does but others I hunt with just want to shoot a deer. My wife is the perfect example, she usually shot a buck and a doe each year until APR's, since Apr's she hasn't shot a buck and doesn't even want to go anymore. It's taken the fun out of hunting. I personally haven't seen a big change in the number of big bucks. We also have CWD now in the area and I think it flys in the face of science to protect bucks so they can older and spread the disease even more. At the age of 70 my eyes are still 20/15 with glasses but in the last 15 minutes of shooting it is nearly impossible to see brow tines and that's on sunny days! On rainy or cloudy days it's worse yet. Thanks for letting me vent.

[Garman]

No

In SE Mn where I live it's 4 pt on a side. When it got passed there were no more than 54% of the people wanted it and one group pushed it through. I've shot enough deer that I only shoot bigger bucks or does but others I hunt with just want to shoot a deer. My wife is the perfect example, she usually shot a buck and a doe each year until APR's, since Apr's she hasn't shot a buck and doesn't even want to go anymore. It's taken the fun out of hunting. I personally haven't seen a big change in the number of big bucks. We also have CWD now in the area and I think it flys in the face of science to protect bucks so they can older and spread the disease even more. At the age of 70 my eyes are still 20/15 with glasses but in the last 15 minutes of shooting it is nearly impossible to see brow tines and that's on sunny days! On rainy or cloudy days it's worse yet. Thanks for letting me vent.

MNBWHTR: I am in full agreement, I could go into a long diatribe listing studies, experience and how it is a loss of hunter rights. But I will not it is just a poor decision based on ignorance and a special interest group who were making there decisions on greed, selfishness and ignorance.

[mec lineman]

after reading these posts, I will still say have designated areas only with ARP. That way a hunter can chose.

[Cool Springer]

I'm for APRs.  I live in Virginia where there are no restrictions.  I see veteran hunters with 30 years experience still killing little bucks with any weapon. There are still some big bucks around because there are fewer hunters in many parts of VA.  I grew up in Pennsylvania, and I still hunt there annually.  There is a 4 pt./side restriction in the western third of the state and a 3 pt./side restriction everywhere else.  The biologist who led the study, and recommended restrictions was hit with such negative pressure he resigned.  Now, 20 years later, most hunters accept the restrictions, and most are amazed at the number of big bucks PA produces each year.  Youth hunters are not included in the regulations, so if a young hunter chooses to kill the first buck they see, it's perfectly legal. I'm all for that!

[YosemiteSam]

Here in most of CA, we have a forked-horn minimum and virtually no doe hunts for most of the state.  The season for most folks ends before the rut begins.  So our public land success rates are usually between 5-10%.  I've heard some compound guys chatting about APRs but, in my experience, it would all but end hunting out here.  The vast majority of hunters already eat tag soup.  And those that bag a buck on public land in a non-lottery zone mostly take forkies.  So, no, I don't want my hunting to be any more difficult than it already is.  I got a forkie this year (rifle) but that was the first legal buck I've seen in my area for 3 seasons.  I've let countless does, fawns and spikes go over that time but would have gladly taken some if it were legal.

Personally, I'm skeptical of what passes for science in uncontrolled environments.  I'm comfortable with taking any animal that allows itself to get within 20 yards of me because it obviously isn't paying attention to its surroundings to let me slip in under its superior defenses.  That's the rule nature follows and if I'm using primitive gear, then I'm just one among nature's predators.  Dumb animals get eaten.  Alert ones live to reproduce another year.  But, laws being what they are, I let the does, fawns & spikes go.

I sometimes wonder if we could save a bundle of cash (redirecting the funds to enforcement and habitat improvement) by limiting research and study in population numbers by simply adjusting the method of take based on the previous year's harvest.  High success years allow for rifles the following year while low success years may limit hunters to primitive weapons only.  But that's just  armchair speculation.  Chances are, such a method would also bankrupt our DFW since rifle hunters are still in the majority.

[goobersan]

strongly against any more rules- especially from nitwits sitting on insurance/corporate money

As conservationists, shouldn't we take David Petersen's view on taking smaller bucks and possibly a few does to maintain herd health in a more natural way ? Natures top predators are seldom interested in chasing the largest bucks or bulls for obvious reasons. No taxidermy options for them I guess 

If a rule must be set in place it should directly reflect the weapon used. Any firearm, or weapon closely related to, can deal with counting points and spreads. Let the bowhunters and especially traditional hunters make their own choice. And after a new hunter has harvested an animal let them now be governed by said rule.

 "lesser weapon-lesser rules"

[Possum Head]

Great thread with lots of good input!

[Ray Lyon]

Now that there’s been a little input, here’s what I proposed to Roger privately last week when we were discussing.  Keep in mind Michigan has had everything from one buck only per year to two unrestricted buck tags.  Currently there is a combination tag that is good for two bucks, one unrestricted and the other for a buck with at least 4 points on one antler.  I don’t know the exact breakdown, however many hunters buy the combination tag.  Some hunters opt for a single tag which is unrestricted.  With either option, a hunter in APR area must follow the APR restrictions on the unrestricted tag. That being said if Michigan went to a one buck rule there would be a significant drop in licensing fee revenues (think 500,000 times $20).

Here’s the compromise proposal:

 Choice #1, one buck tag good for ANY size buck.    Choice #2, two buck tags, BOTH restricted to FOUR points or better on one side.  If this were in place NO antler restricted areas would be allowed anymore.   This would be a compromise for everyone AND allow people to shoot a single young buck if that’s what they desire and no area would have restrictions on what you can or can’t shoot as there is now.

[bigbadjon]

They have laid them on us on Florida and I fear they are here to stay. I have had to pass up deer that would have been legal if they had brow tines, which is frustrating. Maybe  I would have less of an issue if I was in a big buck state but the restriction of 3 points on one side is frustrating when so many FL bucks do not grow brow tines. You can also shoot a buck with 10 inch main beams which is less restrictive but I am a first deer I see, I shoot kind of hunter.

[WESTBROOK]

Ray, the combo tags are good for does or bucks during archery...at least in the LP...not sure if the UP is allowing does to be taken yet or not.

APR's have been a good thing around here. The B/D ratio has been messed up around here for a long time. Its nice to see some decent bucks finally.

My take...loose the APR's and go back to one buck.. or.. keep the APR's and still go to one buck. They are generous with doe tags around here for the folks who just want some meat.

[Bowguy67]

It depends on many factors. Could it be a deterrent for someone who works and gets very little time in woods? Someone who’s a single parent w very little free time. You gonna tell your old man who’s 90 and barely made it up a hill he can’t shoot the deer in front of him cause some lawmaker said so? How bout your young child. We get one chance often to hook em. Gonna tell him that spike is only for looking at? Years from now it’ll get better for someone else.

The state I live in has QDM, at first I was all for it but w exceptions for youth, elderly and disabled. Will it help? Idk I’d bet if they reclassify button bucks so they aren’t antlerless we might have more bucks. In my state it’s unlimited antlerless. One guy bragged years ago about killing 15 button bucks on his feed pile. Guy was a puke if you as me. I haven’t seen a bachelor herd in years because of this.
Now the state I live in has gun season until mid March. How exactly bad do they wanna protect bucks if the season is still open and unlimited? The same forkhorn you passed 6 times w a longbow is now on some guys truck in January cause his horns fell off and now he’s legal. That helped nothing.
John Ozoga did a study, 51% of fawns born are bucks. Killing all the does isn’t good either.
QDM is nonsense here at least if you ask me. It depends on the situation elsewhere

[Ryan Rothhaar]

Going from 2 bucks to 1 buck in Indiana was great...APRs here where I live wouldn't do much to protect 18 month old bucks...most have 4 points on one side anyway.

What I would LOVE to see is classifying a BUCK based on GENDER not horns...sorry guys, but if it has testicles it is a buck.  I wish the first idiot in some game department that came up with "antlered buck = buck tag, button fawn = doe tag"  had never been hired.  Guys would QUICKLY get better at identifying button heads from does if a "buck tag" meant buck (ie...male deer), not horns, as any thinking human being would have logically concluded.

A guy wants to shoot a button fawn, have at it, I won't tell you "no"...but you gonna burn that buck tag on him.  Now THAT would have some effect on buck doe ratios and herd dynamics.

R

[LC]

Great discussion. I'm a life long old bowhunter that's been fortunate to hunt several states. In a nut shell I like Ohio's laws. One buck and done. Doesn't matter if you are 13 or 70. IF you like the buck you are about to kill good for you but you are done! Seems simple enough but it's a lot more confusing when you bring into the debate of the state you hunt and the available deer to hunt.

[Ray Lyon]

Eric, you cannot harvest does in the UP with the combo tags and you are correct that bow hunters can use them for bucks or does in lower peninsula.  The reason I like my proposal above is because if you want two buck tags, both bucks must have 4 or better on a side. You could even say 4 on one tag and 5 on the other for combo tags and then the single buck tag option is unrestricted.  You’re still going to more than likely have similar statistics to a one buck rule, keep revenue up because many of the seasoned hunters are going to opt for two tags because there will be an increase in buck population and older structure in age AND for the kid hunting for the first time or the person in the twilight of their career they can shoot a single any size buck and be satisfied with their harvest.

[STICKBENDER98]

I am not an advocate of APR's, I'm not saying that they don't work, but I think there are better ways to manage our deer herd here in Michigan.  When I was able to start hunting, (no special youth hunt 38 years ago) I went out with my Dad's Bear recurve, I was taught that you don't shoot does, and if you saw a buck you shot it, it didn't matter how big it was. I can remember in the 80's when we had a two tag limit for bow and a two tag limit for rifle, so you could legally shoot 4 bucks. As I grew and matured as a hunter, I put self imposed restrictions on myself. I have never regretted that.  I have hunted on farmers land that wanted does taken, and had no problem helping them out.  I have also hunted outside of our state for several years now, and have been able to see how other states handle their management of their  deer herds.  I think that our state needs to look at how liberal they have made the seasons, in essence we can start shooting deer from the middle of September through the first of January, with any sort of weapon, and now with cwd thrown  in the mix, our muzzle loader season, has basically been made an extended rifle season.  If you take a few minutes and look at the amount of deer that have been posted on the Michigan buck pole, there have been a lot of very nice deer being taken, showing that if people let deer go they will get bigger, it just takes time.  With all this being said, I really don't want someone telling me what I can or cannot shoot, I want to be the one that makes that decision. 


Jason

[Ray Lyon]

Ryan Rothhaar, yes the four on one side doesn’t matter as much in your neck of the woods. It’s the very reason that all of the voted in antler restrictions are in northern lower peninsula and Upper Peninsula of Michigan because first year bucks are more likely spikes, forkhorn or maybe six points.  In southern MI it’s closer to what you’re seeing in Indiana and that’s part of the reason for our states controversy is that northern area hunters don’t get to see an ‘eight’ point because they’re shot as forkhorn bucks because the guy always has that second tag in his pocket to shoot bullwinkle if he come along.

[Ryan Rothhaar]

Ray, yep I understand your point about the 2nd tag for Bullwinkle...that is exactly what we had in Indiana..."first tag" for most guys was any buck with horns and "second tag" was held for the biggun...till later in season then that was used on a second little one more than likely. 

Going to a one buck limit helped out with that. If the Michigan DNR is worried about loss of second buck tag revenue at $20 each....just cut back to one buck tag and double the price!  Doe tags can be kept at lower rate.  Betcha after a couple years when the hunting improves the vast majority of deer hunters would think that 20 dollars well worth it.

Too bad our game departments are generally incapable of thinking outside the box....

R

[mec lineman]

very good discussion fellas

[Austin Brown]

I agree with Gregg, don't want to be told what we can shoot period, especially on private ground.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk

[Ray Lyon]

Ray, yep I understand your point about the 2nd tag for Bullwinkle...that is exactly what we had in Indiana..."first tag" for most guys was any buck with horns and "second tag" was held for the biggun...till later in season then that was used on a second little one more than likely. 

Going to a one buck limit helped out with that. If the Michigan DNR is worried about loss of second buck tag revenue at $20 each....just cut back to one buck tag and double the price!  Doe tags can be kept at lower rate.  Betcha after a couple years when the hunting improves the vast majority of deer hunters would think that 20 dollars well worth it.

Too bad our game departments are generally incapable of thinking outside the box....

R

Ryan,  this is a social issue and money issue for our game department. Agreed they could change fee structure as you described but to a bunch of howling for sure.  From the other side you’re going to have guys fighting tooth and nail that ‘not that many people shoot a second buck so it doesn’t matter’. I’ve never bought into that argument.  The game department goes along with current rules because the herd is biologically in balance with habitat so the number of bucks and age structure balance is a social issue.