Antler Point Restrictions and Traditional Bowhunting

[shamus275]

All I know is that when I hunted as a kid (25yrs ago), we never saw any 8pts. My uncle has hunted the same land for 40yrs and he never seen or shot an 8pt until the APR went into effect in our county. I started seeing them a few years before that but I have the luxury of spending the full season in a stand if I choose to. I didn't like the APR at first but it is growing bigger deer in our area. Its not uncommon now to see several different 8pts and even some big 10's on our property and that never used to happen. I noticed that the bucks we harvested this fall were much heavier in body mass and rack size than in previous years and IIR this is the 3rd or maybe 4th year of the APR in MI? I'm all in for the APR.

[Possum Head]

I’ve learned a great deal about how other states deer regs work from this thread. I agree that our 65 and older hunters ought to have more flexibility. Currently those 15 yrs or less can take any buck(3 total) with exception of dog seasons. Many rednecks in this region will take a child for the express purpose of killing whatever jumps the road. I would rather have a 1 buck limit of any size than our 3 buck restricted law. This is primarily based on the fact that I’ll probably never reach my annual quota as I bow hunt only. I thought years ago when the restrictions began I would eventually see an increase of mature bucks but it seems unchanged. It has to help but one would think it would be more evident. I’m sure private land lends itself better to antler growth.

[Trenton G.]

I believe that we are on our 5th or 6th year of APR's. It took a few years to get going, but once it did, people started seeing and shooting nicer deer. I don't hunt much for the antlers, although I certainly get excited when I see a big one. I just like being able to take older deer. The past four deer that my brother and I have taken have all been bigger than anything that my dad or grandpa have ever shot, and they both have a wall full of antlers.

That being said, I can see both sides of the argument. When APR's were first implemented here, there were a lot of guys who were furious about it. Talk to these guys now and they are singing a completely different tune. There are still guys who shoot deer that aren't legal, but even those who did are starting to go away since they are seeing better deer.

I think what Michigan really needs to do if they want to build the herd back up is back off on the does. It seems like they can come up with a special firearm doe season for just about anything! Early season doe hunt. Late season doe hunt. Shoot them with your rifle during muzzleloader season, etc. etc. It's hard to build up a population when you are increasing the number of bucks and decreasing the number of does in such high numbers.

There was talk a few years back about having an age cutoff where APR's wouldn't apply, but I don't think that ever happened. They were also talking about eliminating them for the first two days of firearm deer season, but again I don't think that went anywhere. I know that they don't apply during the youth hunt, which is good since it lets younger hunters get that first deer under their belts.

I don't really have any real scientific knowledge to back up what I'm saying. Just the slightly biased opinion of a deer hunter. This is a great topic! Really enjoying reading everyone's thoughts.

[dirtguy]

Geez...This makes me glad I live in a state with plenty deer and no so many hunters. Hunting just private land I can take up to four deer (no more than two bucks) by bow and two more (one buck) with rifle/shotgun.  I could add two more by hunting muzzle loader, and two more by hunting in the next management zone south.







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[gregg dudley]

I think it is hard to know which factors account for an increase in the number of bucks in a given area.  Logically speaking, it makes sense to give credit to antler restrictions.  I would argue, however,that dwindling hunting numbers and an aging hunter demographic are perhaps as important to figure into the equation.

[BowHunterGA]

For me it really comes down to this. What gives another person, or group of persons, the right to tell me what I can or can not shoot with the gear and license I bought and paid for? I know the goal is then everyone gets the chance to shoot a bigger buck but how do you rationalize that it is my responsibility to increase your odds for a larger deer?

Now all that said, I passed on more than one small, younger buck this fall hoping for a larger buck. Last weekend I was lucky enough to take a nice 3.5 year old buck. Had another month gone by without success a smaller buck might have been in trouble.

I will tell you another side effect of APRs, one I have seen myself. Smaller bucks will still be shot and in some cases the hunter will just leave it in the field in fear of being caught with a smaller deer. A local WMA here has point restrictions and twice I have found dead bucks that did not meet the minimum.

[Burly]

I live and hunt in the NW12. The first three years of the new APRs we had some nicer bucks running around. But the last two years there have been alot less . The hunting pressure has become a real problem in my area. It seems everyone has flocked to this area in hopes of getting a crack at a bigger buck.
It's gotten pretty bad, the latest craze is guy's doing deer drives using xbows and wearing Bluetooth devices. Pretty sad.

[Burly]

I should of added I don't mind the aprs , just hate patchwork aprs. It puts to much pressure on the areas that have them Imo. Did we need them, no. There was nothing wrong with the way things were. But on the other hand it is a good thing to save some bucks from being wacked do to the popularity of xbows and really long gun seasons plus other special seasons or Dnr feel the need to have. Ah if we could just roll back time. I miss the good ol days of deer hunting, to me this was 70s - 90s.

[Sam McMichael]

I wonder how much of this APR stuff is decided politically and how much is decided on REAL science.

[Tom]

I live in Western Va. and we have two buck tags here and 3 doe tags. Unfortunately, does are legal all two weeks of gun season(thanks insurance companies) and our overall deer population is going down. With the buck tags one is unrestricted and the other has to have 4 on one side. Personally I shoot does rather than small bucks as they eat better but certainly have killed boatloads of small bucks in the past. Haven't seen improvement in size of bucks since aprs enacted. I would rather have just 1 buck tag for any weapon and two doe tags. Sure people would be more selective in what they shot.
 East of the Blue ridge I can shoot two bucks,three does, and 1 of either sex. Granted the deer population is higher there but body size generally is smaller but rack size can be larger. I feel our wildlife management is ruled by $$ and not scientific fact. I also don't feel the age of the hunter-meaning seniors-should be a factor as people in my age bracket certainly have killed enough deer to know what  they want on the meat pole.

[LITTLEBIGMAN]

I am for them.

The herd balance and the intensity of the rut has vastly improved in my area since we implemented them here in the SE. Granted only a small majority of us wanted them at first but it was still a majority. Now the hunter satisfaction rate is much higher because people are having better hunts over all. APR is not about better antlers it is about better herd management.  If any one spends as much time hunting as I do and can compare the before/after you would understand that.

Big antlers is a visible display of a healthy adult deer.


You can educate all you want but the sad fact is most people won't allow a young buck  a pass unless
they are forced to .

also for those here who complain they are meat hunters, you get to shoot 3 does here, that really should be enough.

[Roy from Pa]

I agree with you and Pa is now the same.

[lifeandlongbows]

I would never presume to tell any other hunter what he/she should or should not kill.  I pass on young legal bucks often.  Sometimes I don't.  It depends on where I am hunting.  The choices that I make at 48 are different than the ones that I made at 16.  The people who are the biggest advocates for antler restrictions usually forget about the basket full of small racks that they have in their closet that they killed as a young (new) hunter. 

Deer populations should be managed based on scientific principles.  The largest and healthiest deer herds emerged nation-wide under sound management practices that didn't have anything at all to do with the size of a deer's antlers.  The same time period had the highest number of people buying a hunting license.  Deer populations were managed to grow and everyone was happy.  The Drurys and others were making videos about killing 4 point bucks and life was good. 

Then came QDM and that was OK because people were ELECTING to follow those principles on their own land or land that they managed.  Then they started forming cooperatives with their neighbors and agreeing to work together to grow bigger deer.  That was ok too, but it didn't stop there.  People weren't satisfied with working on their own properties so they started putting pressure on the legislature to mandate their way of hunting on the rest of the population.  That's where things went south.

Today, antler restrictions and small buck shaming are KILLING hunting.  It is all about the score.  You want to know why hunter numbers are on the decline?  Unrealistic expectations based on TV hunting and too many restrictions placed on what new hunters are allowed to enjoy.  We are doing it to ourselves.

Yep. Agreed. Plus, I have moments to shoot a deer. Precious moments. I don't have time to count points. I do however know when I want to shoot a deer and when I don't. That is an instantaneous thing.

[Cool Springer]

I love Ryan's idea that any deer with testicles counts as a buck, and one must use a buck tag for that deer.
Also, for those saying they see less bucks due to antler restrictions, consider the fact that older deer tend to be smarter, or more educated to our presence.  They rarely act like the "teenage" buck that we often see running everywhere during the pre-rut.

[JakeD]

I haven't read through the comments, so some of this may have already been touched on.  When it comes to point restrictions, I tend to disagree with them.  I pass young bucks all the time, but if I want to shoot one, that is a personal choice.  If states really want to make a difference and have bigger bucks and balance buck and doe ratios, take a look at some 1 buck states.  People will be much more picky if they only get one buck tag.  Guys that are meat hunters only and don't care about a rack, they win in this scenario.  Guys that care only about a big buck and not much else, they also win.  This would mean an increased harvest of does, and more than likely a decrease in harvest of young bucks.  That would mean a better balanced herd, and more mature bucks to pursue.  That's just my take on things. 

[Roy from Pa]

All Pa ever has had is 1 buck per hunter.

[Howitser]

My $.02 on this.  Pa. had tons of deer in the 60's. Nothin to see 25 runnin together, maybe 60 deer in a day, public and private land. Almost all the bucks were spindly spikes and Y's. If someone got a 6 it was something. They enacted restrictions and there was an uproar. Jump ahead and yes  there are definitely healthier animals. I like the results. Deer numbers are down primarily due to very liberal doe harvests. Overall, combined, there is a healthier herd more in balance with the carrying capacity of the land. I do have an issue with some doe harvest programs we still have in place, but that is for another thread.
I do notice fewer hunters which is Ok too as I believe many reckless, unethical hunters will not want to work for their quarry. You'll see them cruising the roads hoping to see an easy shot from the truck. For the most part the only danger from these guys is all the litter you have to pick after these slobs.

[JakeD]

All Pa ever has had is 1 buck per hunter.

So give me some insight here on being a 1 buck state.   Why did PA ever put APR into effect?  Did everybody just kill the 1st buck they saw?  Why has it worked in some states but not others? 

My guess here is that it has to do with hunter numbers?  I'm not really sure, but I know PA has a very large amount of hunters.  It's strange to see it work well for some states, but not at all in a place like PA. 

[Chain2]

I think they work. I’m in a county that doesn’t have them. Our state is a poor example of good deer management in my opinion. Where I live is managed the same way Kent Co is and they have 10X the deer. I dont like the 2 buck thing. I don’t like the youth hunt. I don’t like crossbows. I don’t like baiting. I also don’t like that you can’t hunt birds in rifle season. It’s the best 2 weeks to hunt. But I do like the APR’s, my son started hunting in the APR zone a few seasons ago and he is seeing and taking a lot nicer bucks than we ever have. If everybody doesn’t participate voluntarily or by regulation, it doesn’t really matter.

[warden415]

My personal opinion is to simply limit the buck harvest. WV finally cut back to 3 a cpl years ago. If I had my choice it would be cut back to 2.
I believe APR are effective but limiting the buck harvest is easier to enforce and also easier for the hunter.