Antler Point Restrictions and Traditional Bowhunting

[JakeD]

My personal opinion is to simply limit the buck harvest. WV finally cut back to 3 a cpl years ago. If I had my choice it would be cut back to 2.
I believe APR are effective but limiting the buck harvest is easier to enforce and also easier for the hunter.

This is definitely an advantage to the buck limit over APR.  Let a guy shoot what he wants.  If it makes him happy, who cares if its 12" wide and only has 6 points.  It's his tag.  If he isn't happy with it, there's always next year.

[Possum Head]

My personal opinion is to simply limit the buck harvest. WV finally cut back to 3 a cpl years ago. If I had my choice it would be cut back to 2.
I believe APR are effective but limiting the buck harvest is easier to enforce and also easier for the hunter.

This is definitely an advantage to the buck limit over APR.  Let a guy shoot what he wants.  If it makes him happy, who cares if its 12" wide and only has 6 points.  It's his tag.  If he isn't happy with it, there's always next year.

Agree with these guys. As mentioned earlier where I hunt (WMA) I’m held to 10”. Let’s say I get all sideways after many dry runs and decide to shoot a buck that turns out to be 9.5. I’ve just shot an illegal deer and have to decide if it’s worth the $250 fine (wild guess) or not. One might say if you ain’t sure don’t shoot. That said I’m being held to roughly a new 12” standard as most that have hunted any amount of time can pick up on a 2” variation. And don’t even get me to guessing on beam length restrictions.


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[Cyclic-Rivers]

Obviously this thread is hit a nerve with many people people apr's ra good tool where needed. Michigan certainly has not been a destination for out-of-state hunters for the most part when looking for a state to shoot a big buck.

I like Ryan's idea of a male deer equals a buck tag. I also understand where Jim is coming from and know that apr's are great at improving the herd age quality.

I think it's easier to put an APR into effect then to educate the majority of hunters and how to identify age class in Deer. I also believe that the majority of hunters couldn't identify their deer until it was laying on the ground in front of them due to the shots they choose to take.

I do not take a stance on a APRS, because I have personally seen the effects of them. I do however find it wrong to pass on a six-year-old buck with a gorgeous six-point rack.

I would be curious to find out exactly what Michigan is trying to accomplish with the APR.

[Garman]

There has been a concern that APR is not the way to go and that age is the way to go. The problem becomes, like discussed earlier, that it would be hard to have an age restriction. My biggest argument against it is the fact I do not want people telling me what the trophy is. To me the smallish 9 point I shot this year at less than 15 yards, made a excellent shot and went 50 yards was a trophy. It was a trophy because everything went perfect and it was hunted not shot long distance. My boy (11 years old) shot his first deer this year with a muzzleloader. I was as proud as him if not prouder. It was a button buck, it was a trophy. If people want trophies they can hunt for them, they can get there own property and manage them. The APR restrictions that are so greatly touted here, in my experience, has not gained much. It causes more to shoot more does, more young "potential bucks are shot", more frustrated hunters, more older "less trophy" bucks are able to live out there years. This coming from someone who has spent not only a ton of days in the woods hunting but a ton of miles and days trapping. The concept on the outside appears good but in reality is flawed. In regards to Minnesota the DNR will never gain credibility of APR with me until they take the gun opener out of the prime rut.

[IndaTimber]

My personal opinion:  I probably won't shoot a spike or a forkhorn, but don't tell me I can't.

This^

[Trenton G.]

Don't know if it was mentioned but in Michigan our APR is 3 on a side, not 4, so six pointers are still legal. I know a guy who shot a three point that had only one side.

[JohnV]

Why should game laws be set to satisfy the "if it's brown, it goes down" crowd?  Many of us want a better experience than that.  Why do we universally accept fishing regulations (size, number, type of lure/bait) and not clamor for exceptions for kids and the elderly?  Maybe we should give our kids and the elderly more credit for understanding and accepting why we have restrictions. 

With regards to the difficulty in counting points, especially at dusk...that is why you should carry binoculars.  On quite a few occasions here in Iowa I had a fat button buck approach my stand with several antlerless tags burning a hole in my pocket.  A quick look with my binos lets me safely decide whether to shoot or not.  Likewise I have avoided shooting small spikes on several occasions that looked like big does.  A mistake here would have cost me one of my precious buck tags!

[Chain2]

Like everything else there seems to be a need for immediate gratification. Youth hunt. Crossbow. Baiting. People hunting from heated blinds or mini houses. If everyone would abide by a certain set of ethics not rules. We wouldn’t need the APR’s. I agree with a kid being able to shoot a spike, if he is out in the woods and weather in the regular season. Let’s put everyone afoot and make them learn to hunt. No baiting what so ever. Go ask a farmer to sit in his corn. I gave 40 acres I hunt on, I don’t shoot young bucks. There is a group of us in my area that all agreed not to shoot anything less than a 6 with the spread being close to the ears. The guy behind me has a truck farm, his wife planted 4000 strawberry plants 2 years ago. The deer are 3995 of them. He killed a bunch of deer that fall, that pi$$ed off the guy to my west. He started shooting everything that moved last fall. So I basically need any help I can get.  I don’t like regulations either but we just don’t have the resources any more.

[Don Stokes]

I've see APRs improve the age structure of a managed herd significantly, but in MS it was found that the "4 point rule" (total points) actually hurt the buck antlers, because the superior young bucks with forked antlers were getting killed while spikes did the breeding. MS changed from point restrictions to a limit on spread or beam length, the thinking being that a buck with antlers with a spread of at least X inches or a beam length of at least X inches was an older deer, so theoretically more first-rack bucks will survive. Oddly, limits on does have been decreased at the same time. That seems counterintuitive, but now that CWD has been found in a third deer, I figure the doe limit will be increased. I don't know if the antler restriction changes have been effective, but I do know that judging inside spread and beam length can't be done without a really good look at the deer, unless it's a big buck.

[Burly]

On other sites I go on there are always heated battles about aprs, it has defiantly caused a riff between hunters. I've had guy's tell me I live in the stone age and am a dinosaur because I didn't like the idea of them and hunted with a recurve. These same guy's had big hunks of private land with heated shacks, food plots and hunted with xbows. Some how Because of what I used and how I hunted ( public land ) I was the " Bad guy". Give me a brake.

[Austin Brown]

There has been a concern that APR is not the way to go and that age is the way to go. The problem becomes, like discussed earlier, that it would be hard to have an age restriction. My biggest argument against it is the fact I do not want people telling me what the trophy is. To me the smallish 9 point I shot this year at less than 15 yards, made a excellent shot and went 50 yards was a trophy. It was a trophy because everything went perfect and it was hunted not shot long distance. My boy (11 years old) shot his first deer this year with a muzzleloader. I was as proud as him if not prouder. It was a button buck, it was a trophy. If people want trophies they can hunt for them, they can get there own property and manage them. The APR restrictions that are so greatly touted here, in my experience, has not gained much. It causes more to shoot more does, more young "potential bucks are shot", more frustrated hunters, more older "less trophy" bucks are able to live out there years. This coming from someone who has spent not only a ton of days in the woods hunting but a ton of miles and days trapping. The concept on the outside appears good but in reality is flawed. In regards to Minnesota the DNR will never gain credibility of APR with me until they take the gun opener out of the prime rut.

Hopefully I don't ever have to worry about it here in Kentucky but couldn't agree more.  My time to hunt is very limited, I absolutely don't want the state or anyone else telling me what a trophy is to me or my family. 

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[Austin Brown]

Why should game laws be set to satisfy the "if it's brown, it goes down" crowd?  Many of us want a better experience than that.  Why do we universally accept fishing regulations (size, number, type of lure/bait) and not clamor for exceptions for kids and the elderly?  Maybe we should give our kids and the elderly more credit for understanding and accepting why we have restrictions. 

With regards to the difficulty in counting points, especially at dusk...that is why you should carry binoculars.  On quite a few occasions here in Iowa I had a fat button buck approach my stand with several antlerless tags burning a hole in my pocket.  A quick look with my binos lets me safely decide whether to shoot or not.  Likewise I have avoided shooting small spikes on several occasions that looked like big does.  A mistake here would have cost me one of my precious buck tags!

Why should the laws be set to satisfy the big horn crowd?  You may want a different experience but that doesn't make it any more right than what I or anyone else wants.

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[John Scifres]

I vote no on antler size restrictions on principle.  But I live in a one buck state.  Hard to say how I'd feel otherwise.  It was probably equally contentious when we went to one buck with most of the same arguments.

[longbowman]

Living in a state that already has this I have to say I hate it in one way.  Before it was made mandatory I had already imposed a "self-regulated" restriction on myself of at least an 8 pt. OR a spread to the ear tips or larger regardless of points.  Now that it's mandatory it takes away from the new guy over 16 that just wants to get his feet wet in hunting, a person who has a family to feed and cares less about the horns, a senior citizen who can't hunt at the level they once could or me when you're in one of those years that the season is ending and you haven't seen a single legal buck all year.  That being said, yes there are larger buck being killed but I don't live in a hunting video, I despise the current leasing crap that has taken neighborhoods that used to allow each other to hunt openly across property lines and now has everything posted so they can grow em' like the video guys.  I just enjoy hunting and that joy is slowly being taken away in the name of bigger horns.

[JonCagle]

Longbowman, if the fellow just wants to shoot a deer, why not shoot a doe? They're are the best eating anyhow.

[Garman]

Joncagle, I will answer from my point of view and experience to your last question as well if that is ok. The last few years, and I believe due to APR, the doe to buck ration has been near 50/50. But nothing of a decent size you could shoot. Many years I went without filling both tags because of this. Having to leave many "6" point older bucks to walk. As I stated the APR in my experience and reading new reports and studies do not work. You have to manage by age class. I as well see someone spoke about fish and keeping size limits, they also put a size limit on the large ones as well. Only one or none bigger than 26" for walleyes for example. The bigger issue is this, but I will first ask how many of you are trappers?, due to greed, anger, and wanting to level the playing field, yada yada...the trappers have darn near legislatively put themselves out of existence. Many of us in the trapper world have a saying "your fellow trappers are your own worst enemy". I see hunting going the same direction and honestly is scares me.

[Garman]

JonCagle I do agree though I rather have a big old doe. Most years I skip small bucks and shoot them anyway, but certain years and for certain people they/I feel we want that option.

[Austin Brown]

Longbowman, if the fellow just wants to shoot a deer, why not shoot a doe? They're are the best eating anyhow.

What would be easier for a new bowhunter to take a mature doe or a young buck in the rut?  You make it sound like shooting a doe is a guaranteed easy proposition.  It isn't for some people, some with limited experience or time are excited for any shot opportunity.

People mention fishing regulations.  Here we have seen crappie limits go from 30 to 20.  Based on biology or science?  Nope, guides and fishermen that can't catch a cold whined and whined to drop the limit so that they could catch more "limits".  The science said no overharvest at all but more regulation crammed down our throats by loud and vocal people with $$$ in the game

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[Austin Brown]

Living in a state that already has this I have to say I hate it in one way.  Before it was made mandatory I had already imposed a "self-regulated" restriction on myself of at least an 8 pt. OR a spread to the ear tips or larger regardless of points.  Now that it's mandatory it takes away from the new guy over 16 that just wants to get his feet wet in hunting, a person who has a family to feed and cares less about the horns, a senior citizen who can't hunt at the level they once could or me when you're in one of those years that the season is ending and you haven't seen a single legal buck all year.  That being said, yes there are larger buck being killed but I don't live in a hunting video, I despise the current leasing crap that has taken neighborhoods that used to allow each other to hunt openly across property lines and now has everything posted so they can grow em' like the video guys.  I just enjoy hunting and that joy is slowly being taken away in the name of bigger horns.

Amen, well said

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[Chain2]

One things for sure Roger, You got us all talking. Nicely Done. I’ve read some stuff that I wasn’t thinking about.