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Author Topic: Antler Point Restrictions and Traditional Bowhunting  (Read 22903 times)

GCook

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Re: Antler Point Restrictions and Traditional Bowhunting
« Reply #100 on: November 30, 2018, 09:09:55 AM »
Roger it doesn't work that way.  There has to be a plan to manage  game populations or else the herds get out of control.  Either too few, too many or unbalanced sex numbers. 
I would bet the average hunter here understands that, even the ones against management regs, and would want to do what it takes to do what's right for the herds.
For example my brother had a group of guys that used to come hunt with him on a couple of properties he has access to where he lives west of Syracuse NY.  At first it was fine.  Deer numbers were up and the deer drives produced truck beds full of whatever deer they could hit with a slug.  Then deer numbers dipped, competition for hunting areas increased but the brown and down attitude for his guests didn't.  He tried to impress on them about letting young deer walk, only taking so many and what not.  He finally quit letting them hunt his spots.  They were family and friends and it caused hurt feelings that haven't been gotten over a decade later.
Too many hunters are in it for just themselves.  Those who implement and support management programs most often are looking out for the herd and end up benefiting those around them.
It's true most states do fall short on the ability to adjust regulations and practices to account for individual area needs.  That is mostly regs they follow and the politics involved with doing what they do.
But there has to be a plan or the needs will fail.  Just letting hunters do what they want without considering the biology of the herd and ecosystem is a bad plan.

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Offline Roger Norris

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Re: Antler Point Restrictions and Traditional Bowhunting
« Reply #101 on: November 30, 2018, 09:26:06 AM »
Roger it doesn't work that way.  There has to be a plan to manage  game populations or else the herds get out of control.  Either too few, too many or unbalanced sex numbers. 
I would bet the average hunter here understands that, even the ones against management regs, and would want to do what it takes to do what's right for the herds.
For example my brother had a group of guys that used to come hunt with him on a couple of properties he has access to where he lives west of Syracuse NY.  At first it was fine.  Deer numbers were up and the deer drives produced truck beds full of whatever deer they could hit with a slug.  Then deer numbers dipped, competition for hunting areas increased but the brown and down attitude for his guests didn't.  He tried to impress on them about letting young deer walk, only taking so many and what not.  He finally quit letting them hunt his spots.  They were family and friends and it caused hurt feelings that haven't been gotten over a decade later.
Too many hunters are in it for just themselves.  Those who implement and support management programs most often are looking out for the herd and end up benefiting those around them.
It's true most states do fall short on the ability to adjust regulations and practices to account for individual area needs.  That is mostly regs they follow and the politics involved with doing what they do.
But there has to be a plan or the needs will fail.  Just letting hunters do what they want without considering the biology of the herd and ecosystem is a bad plan.

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We are talking 2 different states here....believe me, we don't have "just let the hunter do what he wants" in place. We have a pretty regulated system,with APR's in place in certain places, doe management, and a single or combo tag system that lets a hunter decide what his season will look like. If we choose the combo tag and 2 bucks, one of them has to have 4 points to a side.

And I have no problem with educating hunters to self regulate, to practice QDM. What I am against is the legislation of it all. There are infinite scenarios in which the individual hunter choosing to shoot a small buck is a desirable option.
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Online Roy from Pa

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Re: Antler Point Restrictions and Traditional Bowhunting
« Reply #102 on: November 30, 2018, 09:27:14 AM »
The herd also has to be managed according to the habitat they are in.

Pa started that program 15 years ago, by issuing many more doe tags for certain areas.

There were so many deer in the mountains that no new growth was occuring.

They ate everything in sight and were skinny deer..

Now since the herd population has been reduced, new growth of good trees is evident.

And there are now some awesome bucks running those mountains.

Offline Roger Norris

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Re: Antler Point Restrictions and Traditional Bowhunting
« Reply #103 on: November 30, 2018, 09:30:51 AM »
I am thoroughly convinced that Michigan is hurting itself with 2 things:

Early youth/veteran/disabled hunt
Gun season during peak rut

SO MANY huge mature bucks are killed during the youth hunt, and so many are "suspect"....Daddy doing everything except squeezing the trigger (maybe)
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Offline Jon Stewart

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Re: Antler Point Restrictions and Traditional Bowhunting
« Reply #104 on: November 30, 2018, 09:50:35 AM »
Roger, there are rumblings that Michigan is going go move the gun opener to the nearest weekend to the 15th. Gun hunters are complaining about the middle of the week opening day. Young guys can't get time off.

Offline Don Stokes

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Re: Antler Point Restrictions and Traditional Bowhunting
« Reply #105 on: November 30, 2018, 09:58:28 AM »
Roger, as a disabled hunter I'm biting my tongue on that one.
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Offline TattooDave

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Re: Antler Point Restrictions and Traditional Bowhunting
« Reply #106 on: November 30, 2018, 09:59:03 AM »
Well, I haven't read all 6 pages of responses, but I throw my 2 cents in. I'm by no means a trophy hunter, but I've always taken the stand of if you want meat, shoot a doe. Let the small bucks grow a little. My personal practice is to let the spikes and fork horns go. I believe the state would benefit from a statewide point restriction, and statewide regulations instead of area by area regulations.

I hear complaints all the time about the lack of deer, so people shoot the first thing they see. Seems like to me that's contributing to the problem. I understand no one likes tag soup, but it only takes a couple years for a spike to grow into a nice buck. I think it's time for Michigan to catch up to the other midwest states, and I think it's possible, if the hunters would change their habits.

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Offline SteveB

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Re: Antler Point Restrictions and Traditional Bowhunting
« Reply #107 on: November 30, 2018, 10:18:07 AM »
Well, I haven't read all 6 pages of responses, but I throw my 2 cents in. I'm by no means a trophy hunter, but I've always taken the stand of if you want meat, shoot a doe. Let the small bucks grow a little. My personal practice is to let the spikes and fork horns go. I believe the state would benefit from a statewide point restriction, and statewide regulations instead of area by area regulations.

I hear complaints all the time about the lack of deer, so people shoot the first thing they see. Seems like to me that's contributing to the problem. I understand no one likes tag soup, but it only takes a couple years for a spike to grow into a nice buck. I think it's time for Michigan to catch up to the other midwest states, and I think it's possible, if the hunters would change their habits.

Tattoo Dave

Some problems - 1/2 of my state does not have a doe as a choice unless you bowhunt.
If populations are low, shooting a doe is not the best management response.
And letting spikes and 4 points go to shoot another 1.5 buck with a couple more points makes no sense at all. Mandatory AR's for the most part simply target the best young deer - making any real measurable gains close to insignificant.
 

Offline TattooDave

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Re: Antler Point Restrictions and Traditional Bowhunting
« Reply #108 on: November 30, 2018, 10:28:03 AM »
I'm thinking some point restrictions would be a lot better then the free for all in some areas we have now...

As far as shooting a doe, in my observations the doe population far outweighs the buck population in Michigan. Just my opinion, but the complaints of lack of deer are from guys hunting public lands, where the hunter to deer ratio is insane, causing way too much pressure and seems like every year more and more nocturnal activity, according to my trail cams anyway. And shooting the first deer that comes in range is a horrible solution.

Tattoo Dave


Offline Chain2

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Re: Antler Point Restrictions and Traditional Bowhunting
« Reply #109 on: November 30, 2018, 10:37:07 AM »
I’m with you all the way Roger. That youth season teaches no one how to hunt at all. I’ve been arguing with gun guys for years about the opener as well. I don’t want them to do the weekend thing either. For my they should draw a line, maybe the shotgun line and manage the 2 areas differently for the Lower and manage the UP on its own too.
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Offline Jon Stewart

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Re: Antler Point Restrictions and Traditional Bowhunting
« Reply #110 on: November 30, 2018, 11:49:02 AM »
I disagree that the mentoring season doesn't teach young hunters how to hunt. Our grandkids have been hunting since they started the program. We taught them all the gun rules and each year we make them qualify before they go out. I have sat with one of them every year and contrary to the  B'S that someone else shot their deer ,our grandkids do all the hunting , assist in the track and gutting process. My 12 year old grand daughter can gut a deer as well as most that have posted on here. As far as the disabled vet goes, they can hunt all year around as far as I am concerned.  The complainers must not have kids or grand kids. Remember, if they are in the woods they ain't in jail.

Online shamus275

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Re: Antler Point Restrictions and Traditional Bowhunting
« Reply #111 on: November 30, 2018, 12:31:53 PM »
I'm thoroughly enjoying and learning a lot from this thread. I'm also impressed that there hasn't been any name calling or arguments like on other forums. With that being said, I'm a 100% Disabled Veteran and I have to disagree with Roger...to a point.

First, even I don't like the youth/Liberty Hunt but as a disabled hunter I'm able to hunt that weekend too. I've never taken a deer during that time frame since the program began. I generally use it as another scouting opportunity to observe deer movement up close and personal. Where I disagree with it is in the fact that the APR's do not apply that weekend and weapon is allowed. In my neighborhood we had nine kids harvest nine bucks, most being within the APR reg but not all. I'm cool with getting kids out there but they seem to get younger and younger every year and I'm starting to think its the Dads that are doing the hunting. In the old days, I wait until I was 12 to legally hunt and I think we need to go back to that.

We also have the Independence Hunt mid-October which we all know basically sucks for hunting whitetails. This is the first year I've been able to see a buck or any deer for that matter since that program started. It was also the first year that I was able to harvest a mature 8pt. I abide by the APR and practice/self-regulate QDMA. I'm more than okay with combining the two seasons, youth and disabled Veterans. I'd actually prefer it to be in October too.

MI seems to change and add regulations seasons by season and I wish they'd collectively make up their minds as to what the standard is going forward. I agree we are shooting ourselves in the face with all the different seasons we have. I'd love to see gun season be a week long and it to be moved further into November after the Rut.
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Offline Fun4all

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Re: Antler Point Restrictions and Traditional Bowhunting
« Reply #112 on: November 30, 2018, 12:41:15 PM »
The answer is simple and needs no more than "EDUCATE do NOT legislate!!!!"

There is NO biological reason that legislatively allowing only shooting "mature" deer benefits anything other than the self professed "trophy hunters" watercooler braggadocios ego!!

"After all, it is not the killing that brings satisfaction; it is the contest of skill and cunning. The true hunter counts his achievement in proportion to the effort involved and the fairness of the sport." Dr. Saxton Pope

Offline Jon Stewart

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Re: Antler Point Restrictions and Traditional Bowhunting
« Reply #113 on: November 30, 2018, 12:56:02 PM »
So letting a spike go to breed a doe that may bring a couple MORE fawns to the field isn't helping increase the deer heard. Two years ago I saw 9 spikes in one day that were let go. I could have shot anyone of them.Well I may not be a scientist and that wasn't a scientific study but I would have to say the next years deer heard was increased because of the APR in my area.

Offline Chain2

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Re: Antler Point Restrictions and Traditional Bowhunting
« Reply #114 on: November 30, 2018, 01:51:43 PM »
I guess I should have clarified my comments a bit. I do have a son. He didn’t qualify for the youth hunt but he wouldn’t have done it. He would have waited till the regular seasons. I see the youth hunt as a really easy time to get a buck, they are still in bachelor groups. That’s when I really start to see bucks at my place. The weather makes it easy to be outside quite a bit different that the first few days of this gun season. It doesn’t give a true representation of our gun season. Weather wise or pressure wise. Plus here we go killing bucks prior to them being able to breed at all. If we don’t police ourselves, I think we need police. I think the youth hunt came about because Dads didn’t want to give up their hunting time to be with the young hunter. Also please be advised Michigan is a very diverse state. I live near and hunt the Pigeon Rive State Forest. I have for 47 years. All game all seasons. We just do t have the game we used to. My son hunts 2 counties west with s few years of APRs under their belts and I can’t get him to deer hunt with me. He sees a lot more 8 pets and bigger all the time. They might not work every where but they work here.
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Offline Roger Norris

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Re: Antler Point Restrictions and Traditional Bowhunting
« Reply #115 on: November 30, 2018, 07:11:34 PM »
Roger, as a disabled hunter I'm biting my tongue on that one.

Don...it's the Youth Hunt I am talking about.
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Offline Roger Norris

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Re: Antler Point Restrictions and Traditional Bowhunting
« Reply #116 on: November 30, 2018, 07:17:03 PM »
So letting a spike go to breed a doe that may bring a couple MORE fawns to the field isn't helping increase the deer heard. Two years ago I saw 9 spikes in one day that were let go. I could have shot anyone of them.Well I may not be a scientist and that wasn't a scientific study but I would have to say the next years deer heard was increased because of the APR in my area.

John...the APR guys in our state don't care about herd size. They want antlers for the hero pictures. Pay attention to how many QDMA guy are sponsored by growth supplements,etc. It smells just like the crossbow carpetbaggers to me.
"Good Lord....well, your new name is Sledge."
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Offline Roger Norris

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Re: Antler Point Restrictions and Traditional Bowhunting
« Reply #117 on: November 30, 2018, 07:29:58 PM »
I disagree that the mentoring season doesn't teach young hunters how to hunt. Our grandkids have been hunting since they started the program. We taught them all the gun rules and each year we make them qualify before they go out. I have sat with one of them every year and contrary to the  B'S that someone else shot their deer ,our grandkids do all the hunting , assist in the track and gutting process. My 12 year old grand daughter can gut a deer as well as most that have posted on here. As far as the disabled vet goes, they can hunt all year around as far as I am concerned.  The complainers must not have kids or grand kids. Remember, if they are in the woods they ain't in jail.

Jon...I know you, and I know that you utilized the youth season exactly as you describe. So did I. But you and I both know those pictures of 8 year olds with a .243 and 12 point aren't what the Youth Hunt was meant to be....and that 8 year old didn't "hunt" that deer.

With regards to veterans...you know my feelings there. You know what I have done and will continue to do for veterans. Hell, I AM one.  Disabled vets aren't abusing the deer herd. But it is coupled with the youth hunt. The entire early season nonsense we have going on accounts for a heckuva lot of mature bucks.
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Offline Dennis Allan

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Re: Antler Point Restrictions and Traditional Bowhunting
« Reply #118 on: December 01, 2018, 01:00:31 AM »
Ok fellas, I usually don't state my opinion on subjects like this but, I have read 6 pages completely. I don't think I saw where one person held my concerns. Does it matter at all APR, youth hunt, liberty, early, late, cwd, hotzones. How does anyone actually know if it works or not. mi has no mandatory deer registration of any kind anywhere except military base hunts.
     Hear me out before you stop reading. The DNR is guessing. I live in the cwd area. My wife and I can legally purchase 26 deer permits between us. BUT we don't have to register a one. How do they know what we killed?? Where are they getting their harvest #s from. They count the deer that pass them parked on the highway.
       Now like i said, I'm in the cwd area. Short answer, killing all the deer in this area won't stop it. Hasn't worked in any state that tried it. Cwd, bluetongue, madcow, scrappy, ehd. All the same spongeform. Desease, different stains. Just like different forms of cancer. Joe Bob down the Rd no longer dies of natural causes, some form of cancer. In our deer it's called NATURAL SELECTION. Ma nature at her finest. It will run its course, and we can't beat her. This desease has ALWAYS been here. We just have better ways to test for it now.
      Youth hunt or whatever you call it. How many kids do you know, under 12, that could kill A deer without heated scent free elevated blinds, legal shooting vise's with big rifles, 400yd muzzleloaders, and or xbows. Actually hunting. Not many.  What are we teaching by letting them do this?? And when they quit, hunting #s are declining. WHY?? They don't know how to hunt. It's too hard. Our fault, we let them do it.

       I believe mi should have state wide regulations. #s down in your area?? Go elsewhere. Everyone has that rite. So much public ground in this state that all taxpayers have access to. EVERYONE has a place to hunt. SOME if not MOST just won't put in the effort. And before it's brought up, I hunt 100 percent public land. 30 years now.
       I'm for one buck tag period. And a doe tag area of your choice. No public/private. Just an area. ALL DEER must be registered within 24hours of being killed. Once registered, another doe tag can be purchased for a specific area. So on and so on. ALL unused tags must be registered as not filled Before next year's tag may be purchased. If you buy it, it must be registered filled or unfilled.
   Now the DNR has some accurate useful data to set areas and quotas for. Age structure of animals in said area, and they will have the opportunity to really examine the health of said deer in specific areas. Actual real data collected by real people who are getting paid by all of us for guessing, up to the point this happens.
      I've hunted just about every county in our state. I am an archery hunter ONLY. I've hunted a dozen other states and provinces of Canada. I target bucks of mature age, not inches of antler. 4.5 and older. I am a trophy hunter, age and food for my family define what I consider a trophy. Strictly my choice. It's not for everyone. Nor should it be.
     Do APRs work?? They can, but in my opinion. It promotes the killing of immature 8s, 10s, 12s allowing bucks of inferior genetics to continue breeding does. The does are going to be bred, happens every year no matter what. So why not make our firearm and muzzleloader seasons rite then when they are most vulnerable. So we can complain about the #s and age class. I get the reasoning behind it.
       I've said enough, this is strictly my opinion, based on what I've seen and I believe. I will not nor have I ever made an apology for it. Will in no way argue about it. But I would like to continue this discussion. Lots of different views on alot of subjects. I think we all agree a change is a must for the future of hunting in mi.     Thanks Dennis

Offline Dennis Allan

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Re: Antler Point Restrictions and Traditional Bowhunting
« Reply #119 on: December 01, 2018, 02:08:15 AM »
Fellas after re-sending my previous post, please don't read into my choice of hunting more than it is. I didn't say or even insinuate that I consistently kill mature animals on state land in mi. More times than not their skills in survival far exceeds my skill at shooting a bow. Putting myself in the rite place at the rite time to even lay eye's on a mature deer(buck or doe) on public ground in MI is what I'm after. I go 2-3 years sometimes without killing one. I do consistently find them every year, most years I come close. And most years they win. Have to play by their rules, your in their house. They have a stacked deck. After 30 years I like to think I'm getting better at shuffling, but I'm not sure.  Thanks for reading.
                                Dennis

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