Antler Point Restrictions and Traditional Bowhunting

[Chain2]

Well said Dennis. Thank you jumping in the pool with the rest of us. Your last post reminds me of a hunt I had 15 or so years ago. It was New Years Eve morning hunt. Cold frosty morning, 0830 or so here they come down the runway heading to the swamp. I had seen a big buck here since early archery but couldn’t even identify number of points. One die passed and started browsing on the edge then another and another, 6 total with another big body still coming. I stood when I saw antlers, he walked behind a hemlock and I drew. When he stepped out at 11 yds, I saw he was a huge 6 pt. , on one side. The last day of season and after 3 months of stalking here he was, unaware. I let down my draw slowly and watched him push his harem into the swamp after about 20 mins. I didn’t have the heart to kill him. He had made it that far, having breakfast with his ladies, I figured he earned another chance. This area isn’t an APR area but he was the last mature buck I’ve seen there. I think for me, I like to see how close I can get to them more than anything. I like to watch them. We eat 2-3 deer a year but most of these are does taken from a beef ranchers place with his landowner tags. They do eat a lot better than the big boys but they aren’t as much fun to pursue. Sorry if this got long winded, but Dennis’s post invoked a memory.

[Jon Stewart]

Well I have to disagree with Dennis on one of his points about kids learning to hunt. It use to be, way back when, that when you turned 14 you bought a license and could hunting because you turned 14. Now the DNR have several steps in place to change that so when a young hunter "comes of age", he/she can go into the woods with some training under their belt. The mentoring/youth hunt is part of that training.
My son and I train the grand kids to hunt, track, gut and and cut up the deer. To write, "maybe" the 10 year old shot that 12 point is a blanket statement that is just not true. Now my grand kids are also excellent archers as well but until they pass our shooting test they can't bow hunt. I put out a 3 D target where they hunt and if they don't shoot well they don't hunt. Basically they have to qualify and they know it and don't fuss about if if they don't, they practice more.

I remember helping our now 22 year old grandson with his hunter safety. I helped with the weapon handling portion. I told him never to receive a firearm with out having the the person handing it over to check it for safe first. Well he remembered that on test day. The kids were divided into small groups for test out purposes..  The weapon handling instructor handed my grandson a shotgun. My grandson handed it back and asked the instructor to check it for safe, "please". The instructor did so and handed my grandson the shot gun and then he checked it safe safe and took the test. As the group left he asked, who taught him that and I told him that I did. The instructor told me that he had learned something that day and that he had never had a student do that before. 

Of course I understand that not everyone does the things that we do but I can tell you this. My grandkids will enter the woods very prepared when the time comes. So don't make blanket statements about maybe they shoot the big buck or they are not learning anything from the mentoring/youth hunt because some are.

[jsweka]

I come at this from a biology background, and I wholly disagree with apr's.

I do agree with managing a herd for more mature animals, but there will always be those animals that don't have the genetics to meet those requirements. Given enough time, I feel they will become the best fit to survive. On the same token, I have seen young bucks with great genetics that were killed because they met those requirements.

I think it is far better to have a state educational program trying to educate people on the benefits of a mature deer herd, and in most instances, killing a doe for meat instead of a immature buck.

Educating people so that they willingly make management decisions that are better for the overall population is the best way to go imho.

With all that said, with gun/compound/traditional muzzleloader I aim for mature bucks and does for the freezer. With my trad equipment, I am still at the stage of taking the opportunity that is given. It's my choice, as I think it should be

Although I agree genetics plays a role and some bucks with the genetics for above average antler growth will be killed at an early age, the number of points a buck sports is generally well correlated with age and it is the easiest thing for a hunter to judge quickly in the field.  Also, one needs to remember that half of the genetic material in a buck comes from a doe and I have yet to see anyone who can judge how big of a buck a given doe will produce.

APRs have certainly worked in PA where we have high hunting pressure.  I killed this buck a few years ago in an area where when I was a kid you never saw anything larger than a 6 point with a spread wider than it's ears.  Same area, same genetics, but now allowed to live at least another year or two. (No, it's not a monster, but it's respectable by PA standards and my biggest).


 

[Dennis Allan]

Hey Jon
      Very well said. I have 3 daughters myself. I also have 3 grandchildren. I raised them all hunting and fishing. And will continue to do so.
      Now let me ask you this. How is the mentored youth program helping the way you teach your children and maybe others children hunter ethics, gun safety and all the other things we learned over time? Would you not teach these things without the program?
      Of course you would, and you did. So did I. The thing that the programs are taking away is patience, having to wait till they are mature enough to handle the responsibility of taking a life. All the things that go with it. And to understand the work that goes in before pulling the trigger.
      Hunting in my house is a privilege that is earned. The reward for the effort they put in. Most children do not have the level of maturity needed to handle that privilege. Mine included.
        You and I are doing it rite. They are going to learn the rite way ( if they choose to participate) with or without any mentored youth program.
       We are the minority brother. Most now feel my child has the rite to hunt at whatever age. They can't shoot enough poundage, they can't shoot an adequate caliber. But I can go buy them a crossbow or a smaller caliber or wait, I can go get a shooting vice to put it in. They won't have to do anything but pull the trigger. Pulling the trigger my friends is not hunting.
    I'm with you Jon. We need to involve as many children as possible. Teach them the rite way. Ethics,safety, responsibility, woodsmanship. All things that will help them with all things they do in life. Patience is key.
     I'm going to agree that you and I have to disagree. We are the minority. Most parents don't have the ethics and or morals to take on the responsibility taking of life demands. Much less ,pass what they don't have ,on to their children. I don't believe most even know the harm they are causing. They don't know or understand.
    Yep, we are the minority.                 Thanks
Dennis
                                                       

[Jon Stewart]

Dennis, I agree with you. To answer your question.  It allows or makes us teach them at an earlier age where if the hunting age was back at 14 that may not happen. To be honest if the mentoring season didn't happen I don't think I would be teaching my 8 year old gun safety and having him qualify to hunt.  I hate to brag about my grand kids but I will, lol. They know more about hunting and tracking than some adults but I/we spend a lot of time with them. I am retired and the kids are home schooled.  My 6 year old grandson knows not to nock an arrow before he is at the shooting stake, knows to stand behind the shooting stake and knows when it is safe to shoot.   BUT we still understand they are little kids so we keep an eye on them.  I just wish more parents and grand parents would spend more time with their kids   to teach them the sport of archery.

And yes I couldn't wait until I was 14 to go hunting. It was like I come of age, lol but we never had classes and had to rely on dad or grandpa to teach us. I think in that respect the state has done it right with the mandatory hunter safety program.

[larry f]

I live in northern Wisconsin, where baiting is legal and there is corn on every 40. I would love to see some type of deer management which would allow the young 1.5 year old bucks to survive. The young buck just get hammered by cross bows, rifles and compounds etc. If baiting went away I may have a different opinion of antler restriction's more than likely.

[Dennis Allan]

Hey Jon
    Sounds like we are agreeing after all. The kids are the ones who will ultimately deal with the consequences for the choices made today. My goals and opinions are not shared by many or most mi residents that I speak with. Which are very few at this point. My brother and I do what we do, hunt how we hunt because that's what we have chosen over the years. We didn't have the luxury of anyone to help us as we learned about this archery lifestyle that we both live today.
      With all the modern distractions my grand kids are facing none of which are outdoor related, it is getting difficult to keep them interested in my lifestyle. Don't push to hard keep it fun for them. In the process I have found some extra enjoyment in some of the simple things often overlooked when you take things as seriously as we do our deer hunting.
        I just bought another squirrel dog to start training, kids love puppies. Hunting this way takes all the pressure off. Don't have to be quiet, sit still, my horns are bigger. None of the things that shooting a deer has become to the majority of the people you talk to. Simple and fun, the way it started out for us. We progressed over time. Anything other than the biggest buck isn't good enough for most kids nowadays. It's to much pressure on them to be successful, if you don't kill one, well, you must have failed. Failing isn't fun. No wonder most will end up quitting at some point. I believe that carries over into whatever they do later on. Quitting wasn't hard at all, I'm not going to work this hard, I'll just quit. Seen it so my any times. And it's sad.                                Good day all
     Dennis
                                                             

[bear mike]

I'm in favor of our combo tags I'm strictly against APRs. Hunter numbers are very low because kids can't go and enjoy a hunt because some so called professional wants to add negative comments about a 4pt the youngster killed and was damn proud of it. If that spike 4pt 6pt or any other 1.5 old bucks makes me happy I'll kill it And it is nobodies business but my own if its killed legally and ethically. Same goes for my kids we don't need nor do I want anyone telling me what size a buck has to be to make my happy

[Chain2]

Mike your post is one of the things I was alluding to. Your area has so many more deer, more good feed and milder winters. Up here we don’t have the numbers for the combo tag. Maybe we should do 1 buck and then once you check that buck you get a doe tag. I agree with you that the success of a young or any hunter should be predicated in the opinion of some moron in TV. This state shouldn’t manage or mismanage if you will, my area and your area alike. We need help up here. I think APRs is the answer until we are willing to do some other things to help.

[bear mike]

Mike your post is one of the things I was alluding to. Your area has so many more deer, more good feed and milder winters. Up here we don’t have the numbers for the combo tag. Maybe we should do 1 buck and then once you check that buck you get a doe tag. I agree with you that the success of a young or any hunter should be predicated in the opinion of some moron in TV. This state shouldn’t manage or mismanage if you will, my area and your area alike. We need help up here. I think APRs is the answer until we are willing to do some other things to help.

You maybe right Chain2 just my opinion. I've hunted in the U.P haven't looked where your located but if I lived north of my area my feeling on APRs wouldn't change. I wouldn't tell another hunter what to kill its not my place hunting used to be and still should be a means of putting meat on the table first and foremost. So if it would be a spike or fork horn for a hunter that depends on a deer than so be it

[Jon Stewart]

You folks understand that your argument is with the state and not other hunters. They took a survey and based on the survey results the regulations were set. You buy a license and the state tells you what you can kill. I am for APR's because they have made our hunting better. It is just that simple we have been seeing more deer and more bucks over the last couple years. I would guess the best thing that those that are against the APR's would be attend a meeting and voice your concerns. If you don"t then it is a mute point.

[bear mike]

You folks understand that your argument is with the state and not other hunters. They took a survey and based on the survey results the regulations were set. You buy a license and the state tells you what you can kill. I am for APR's because they have made our hunting better. It is just that simple we have been seeing more deer and more bucks over the last couple years. I would guess the best thing that those that are against the APR's would be attend a meeting and voice your concerns. If you don"t then it is a mute point.

Your entitled to pass on small racked deer completely your choice but it may not be mine or some other hunter who feels fortunate enough and is happy with the deer they have an opportunity to kill. Shoot what you want I'll do the same. I've wrote my government officials concerning my thoughts on this very subject and givin the time if at all possible I will attend a meeting if there is a meeting

[Jon Stewart]

Yup, that is all someone can do. Make calls and attend meetings. Keep in mind it is the state that dictates what you can shoot, not other hunters. Other hunters voiced an opinion just like you did. I called Chad Stewart with the DNR and told him that APR's were working in our area and he appreciated the input. I am sure he would like to hear from everyone. You young guys wouldn't like the "restrictions" that were in place when I started hunting. One deer only either with a gun or a bow.

[Anointed Archer]

To me, deer hunting is deer hunting the antlers are not the species the deer is. I also agree with Mr. Dudley's comments.

[Broken Arrows]

How do like this guys. One deer per year unless you pay more for a draw then get drawn, with APR and does only opened in a few areas of the state. Then you have the master hunter program that allows you some access to privet lands but most of this goes to the friends and family of the land owners.

Just yesterday I heard a land owner braging that they had killed 6 cow Elk on his land with in the first hour of light.
Then add in no hounds on preditors and in the reinterduction of Wolfes.

[GCook]

The "putting meat on the table" arguement doesn't help your cause. In Missouri a 1.5 year old buck will average about 130lbs field dressed. A 3.5 year old 190lbs field dressed.  That is a significant size difference and a lot more meat just by letting a deer get some age on it.

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[Chain2]

Here we tried to get everyone to do the QDM but not enough did. I guess that’s why we’re talking about this in the first place, both sides of the fence thinking they are correct. I think if you’re talking food or horns the herd needs to be managed. You couldn’t run a beef herd like this or any herd. You can’t base any findings in data that the only common denominator is the subject at hand. We gave less feed natural or otherwise. No one farms here anymore. We have awful winters. Maybe not as severe as years past but they last forever. Anyone in my area last April? Our predators have increased with larger number of coyotes and the re introduction of the wolf. Habitat is shrinking with larger tracks of land being split up. Everyone wants a house up north. For those of us who have spent a lot of time in the woods, here, for the last half century in the same area know we can’t continue to slaughter like we have been. I don’t like the government or anyone else telling me what to do but how else are we going to save anything for generations to come? No youth season, one buck per hunter, register that buck and you can get a for tag.Gun hunt the first 15 days of December. No baiting. Crossbows hunt with the black powder guys. Heck, we could even take away elevated platforms for rifle and muzzleliaders. Do this and you wouldn’t need APRs. Shoot any buck, check it. Keep hunting.

[northern lights]

 I myself wasn't for AR'S here in Pa., now I'm all for them,  my last 3 bucks have been my best and I've been at it since the late 60's and have been lucky enough to have harvested a deer for every year I've hunted. IMO they work and think we're all trophy hunters at heart put a basket racked 6 point and a 20 inch 10 point at equal distance from the stand and tell me which one will get shot at.

[Dennis Allan]

       MI has so many different types of areas and they are all different. I live in West Central, I have a house in the eastern UP(Drummond island), and a camp in western lower UP(faithhorn). While that isn't every area, I can and do understand different people's concerns.
      I belong to different hunting clubs, I'm on the board of one sportsman club, I attend meetings when possible. Most meetings end up just like this thread. I believe this is a discussion about APRs to begin with other topics involved that do relate. Others have viewed it as an argument amongst ourselves. Some will see it as a waste of time. If keeping these threads going open the eyes of only one person, or let's someone see another side of things. Educates another about unseen or unthought of issues. Then the time isn't wasted, the issues are not going to just go away. Write letters, go to meetings, talk to people, join clubs, organizations, associations, or many other options. It's not your opinion or choice that is most important. More than anything it's your involvement. Numbers are what matters. In MI, if we could get even half of the hunters to come together and just agree there NEEDS to be a change. Just come together. We would not be stopped, our numbers are so large we couldn't be voted down. We have an army of hunters here. Together we can be strong. Until that happens, things will change the way they want it to.
         There isn't a solution that everyone will agree on, every one of us will lose something to gain something. Nobody will have it the exact way they want it. It will be a give and take.  But without coming together, it will continue on the way it is. I think we do agree that isn't what anyone wants. And that is state wide.
       Don't change anything next year. But add mandatory registration for all tags purchased. Check-in at private volunteer business's. Brings revenue to them for their time.  And above all else, it will give actual data, real numbers, fact's instead of guesses and incomplete information. That can be used to make educated choices based on real information. Doesn't matter your stand or opinion, for once it will be real factual information... I think that is the place to start.
            Thanks for reading.
                 Dennis

[bear mike]

[/quote]

The "putting meat on the table" arguement doesn't help your cause. In Missouri a 1.5 year old buck will average about 130lbs field dressed. A 3.5 year old 190lbs field dressed.  That is a significant size difference and a lot more meat just by letting a deer get some age on it.

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Says you but not the hunter that depends on that deer or the hunter who get a very limited time to spend in the woods