Antler Point Restrictions and Traditional Bowhunting

[Jon Stewart]

So you let the spike go because of APR,s and he breeds a doe. Next spring you have at least 3 deer, the spike, the doe and the fawn. How is that not increasing the deer herd as a result of the APR's? You shoot the spike in archery season and that doesn't happen.

[bear mike]

The number of deer in our state is part of the problem. In my area we have a lot of deer more restrictions will just make it worse. I am fine with a spike if the mood strikes me. Its obvious that what makes other hunters feel successful is completely different I'm fine with that couldn't careless but if these APRs happen that some folks want to happen hunter numbers will drop even more. Not everyone thinks a great season ends with a bigger antlered deer so force people to be passive and not kill a deer and see what happens

[thumper-tx]

For well over a decade, my part of Texas has had a restriction system based on inside spread that works very well. You get two buck tags, one for a spike and one for a branch antlered buck. The branch antlered buck has to have at least a 13" inside spread which is also the common distance between ear tips on a buck looking straight at you. This restriction protects all 1 1/2 year old's and most 2 1/2 year old deer. [Yes you could have a 3 1/2+ yr old buck that was not 13" but it is very rare.] Since this reg went into effect, the number of mature bucks in the woods has gone up drastically. Most branch antlered bucks killed are 3 1/2+ and harvest numbers are as high as they were before the regulation.

As an added bonus, we get higher fawn survival due to less predator loss. This is how that works. State biologist have harvested does in January-feburary (roughly 100 each time)and removed the fetus and by measuring it can determine almost to the day when the doe was bred. They found that the main rut got shorter and there was almost no second rut because virtually all the does got bred the first go around. Aparenty the older bucks are better at "taking care of business".  This puts most of the fawns on the ground in a narrow time window and since a predator is only going to eat so many per week, more of the fawns are alive as they grow out of that first four high risk weeks of life.


So, it seems that the restrictions have been a big win for herd numbers as well as having more mature bucks in the woods. IMO, one of the best regulations TPWD has ever passed. Surveys show hunter approval in the high 80% range.

[Roger Norris]

The "putting meat on the table" arguement doesn't help your cause. In Missouri a 1.5 year old buck will average about 130lbs field dressed. A 3.5 year old 190lbs field dressed.  That is a significant size difference and a lot more meat just by letting a deer get some age on it.

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“If you just want meat, shoot a doe” says the APR advocate. But I don’t just want meat. I can buy meat. I want the memory of the hunt. I want to hunt my way, make my own choices. Don’t tell me what a trophy is, I’ll decide on my own.

[GCook]

If I eat red meat it is venison 90+% of the time.  I've had three heart attacks, have 5 stents, including one in my upper LAD and am fairly careful about fat intake due to cardiovascular disease.   My family eats 3 to 4 deer a year.  Granted they are smaller here in Texas.   I've hunted in AR counties before but this county is not regulated by them.  In the years I did those counties herds flourished despite the long tirades by guys on the hunting forums.
I worked over 30 years with a water department.  Spent most of that on call 24/7.  Took every minute of OT I could get and the last 10 years my hunting time was significantly impacted and it was a challenge to fill my tags but I managed by being blessed to hunt in Texas.  We have areas with great herds.  The last 4 years I've had my own business.  Not tha I cannot live on my retirement but 2 friends and I bought a ranch and it's expensive and time consuming.  This is the second weekend I've hunted my lease and season has been open 8 weeks.  This 3 year old 10pt in front of me is a nice young buck but he won't weigh but 100lbs field dressed and in 3 years he'll probably score close to 170.   
But he will never reach that potential if I loose an arrow on him today.  We've had guys leave this lease because they can't abide by the management program saying if they pay their money they should be able to shoot what makes them happy. Truth is I liked those guys and hated to see them go but in just 2 years the plan is paying off with three 140 class bucks killed this season.  Unfortunately I haven't seen one yet but . . 
I can't speak for Michigan but QDM works in many places. 
Like said above.  Get with your DNR and work with them.

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[bear mike]

If I eat red meat it is venison 90+% of the time.  I've had three heart attacks, have 5 stents, including one in my upper LAD and am fairly careful about fat intake due to cardiovascular disease.   My family eats 3 to 4 deer a year.  Granted they are smaller here in Texas.   I've hunted in AR counties before but this county is not regulated by them.  In the years I did those counties herds flourished despite the long tirades by guys on the hunting forums.
I worked over 30 years with a water department.  Spent most of that on call 24/7.  Took every minute of OT I could get and the last 10 years my hunting time was significantly impacted and it was a challenge to fill my tags but I managed by being blessed to hunt in Texas.  We have areas with great herds.  The last 4 years I've had my own business.  Not tha I cannot live on my retirement but 2 friends and I bought a ranch and it's expensive and time consuming.  This is the second weekend I've hunted my lease and season has been open 8 weeks.  This 3 year old 10pt in front of me is a nice young buck but he won't weigh but 100lbs field dressed and in 3 years he'll probably score close to 170.   
But he will never reach that potential if I loose an arrow on him today.  We've had guys leave this lease because they can't abide by the management program saying if they pay their money they should be able to shoot what makes them happy. Truth is I liked those guys and hated to see them go but in just 2 years the plan is paying off with three 140 class bucks killed this season.  Unfortunately I haven't seen one yet but . . 
I can't speak for Michigan but QDM works in many places. 
Like said above.  Get with your DNR and work with them.

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I'm not saying QDMA doesn't work I'm saying I don't want it shoved down my throat to the point I have to do it. I don't hunt for a big rack sure I like to kill a big deer if the opportunity presents itself but if it doesn't I'm fine with that also because I am satisfied shooting whatever buck I choose to

[bear mike]

The "putting meat on the table" arguement doesn't help your cause. In Missouri a 1.5 year old buck will average about 130lbs field dressed. A 3.5 year old 190lbs field dressed.  That is a significant size difference and a lot more meat just by letting a deer get some age on it.

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“If you just want meat, shoot a doe” says the APR advocate. But I don’t just want meat. I can buy meat. I want the memory of the hunt. I want to hunt my way, make my own choices. Don’t tell me what a trophy is, I’ll decide on my own.

Right on Roger

[Tooner]

So you let the spike go because of APR,s and he breeds a doe. Next spring you have at least 3 deer, the spike, the doe and the fawn. How is that not increasing the deer herd as a result of the APR's? You shoot the spike in archery season and that doesn't happen.

That sounds good in theory but in reality very few does go unbred.  Even if you kill the spike, the doe he might have bred (statistics actgually show that yearling bucks relatively small amount of the breeding) will get bred anyway.  Ironically, by targeting only mature bucks, you almost guarantee that more does will be bred by the surviving younger bucks. 

[gregg dudley]

Interesting points on both sides about youth seasons.  I do not favor youth seasons, but I understand why they exist.   It is so people will actually take their kids hunting.  It is sad, but true. 

I certainly do not favor antler restrictions for kids.  I also don't agree with age restrictions for kids as hunters.  Get them out there.  Get them some success.  Give them something to hang on their wall.  Let them feel a part of the brotherhood.    Let them do that with some regularity.  THEN, influence them to be more selective if you want to.

I think that the references to kids hunting in big blinds with rifles on a rest and heaters is funny because that is how more than half of the adults that are out there hunt.  If it isn't coming to a feeder or a food plot 2/3 of the people out there wouldn't have a chance of killing it.  Who cares?  People have various levels of interest, time, and resources that influence the way they hunt and there is far more than one dimension to the hunting experience.  The problem is that we forget that.  We think everyone's hunting scenario is like ours. 

Don't pass laws that restrict people's enjoyment of the outdoors unless there is a sound biological reason for doing so.  Do whatever you want to do that is more conservative or more restrictive, but allow others to enjoy the outdoor experience at the level they are on without infringing on it.

[Chain2]

I’ve been the most critical I guess over the youth season and anyone not just kids hunting in heated blinds. By no means am I saying that they shouldn’t be able to hunt in a blind or whatever. I’m saying that we’ve made so many opportunities available to kill deer as I’ve listed in other posts and we have more surefire methods of doing so as I have also mentioned in earlier posts, we should try to level the playing field a little. I don’t think nor do I want to imply that I am Lord of all Deer. Until everyone realizes that their means and methods affects all of us in this state, I’d like to see the herd managed accordingly.

[Jon Stewart]

Roger, the government has been telling you what to shoot long before the APR's came into play, especially with a rifle. If you get a doe permit then that is what you shoot and if you get a buck tag then that is what you shoot.  They just told you what you can shoot.  APR's are not a statewide thing. You can always go to an area where there are no APR's and shoot away or to the U.P. where in most areas you cannot shoot a doe. I know those folks are not happy about that. I no that no matter what the rules are not everyone is going to be happy but I know that in my area we are seeing more deer, more bucks and in some cases many larger bucks.  AND, I haven't shot a deer with a bow in 4 years and that is by choice. I leave them for my grandkids.

BUT no-one should blame other hunters for these restrictions as they were made by the state.

[Roger Norris]

Roger, the government has been telling you what to shoot long before the APR's came into play, especially with a rifle. If you get a doe permit then that is what you shoot and if you get a buck tag then that is what you shoot.  They just told you what you can shoot.  APR's are not a statewide thing. You can always go to an area where there are no APR's and shoot away or to the U.P. where in most areas you cannot shoot a doe. I know those folks are not happy about that. I no that no matter what the rules are not everyone is going to be happy but I know that in my area we are seeing more deer, more bucks and in some cases many larger bucks.  AND, I haven't shot a deer with a bow in 4 years and that is by choice. I leave them for my grandkids.

BUT no-one should blame other hunters for these restrictions as they were made by the state.

Jon - Those restrictions were, for the most part, lobbied for by other hunters. Just like the crossbow law.

I respect you too much to argue, so I won't. But there are a lot of ways to accomplish this without restricting some hard working, limited time hunter from killing the buck of his choice.

Here's a thought...no more button bucks on an antler-less tag, and no more deer drives. How many button bucks are killed or wounded on deer drives in the proposed APR area? Plenty. We banned drives on our farm years ago after a drive resulted in 6 button bucks being killed.

There are lots of ways to increase the percentage of 4.5 year old deer without infringing on another hunters choices.

[last arrow]

I've been watching this for a few days and would like to give my opinion on APRs.  I have done the majority of my hunting in the APR area of the northwest lower since the mid 90's.  Over that time I have seen the area I hunt go from one of the highest deer density areas to being below average for the last 10 years or so.  I believe this is due to high numbers of doe permits continuing to be issues beyond when they should have been, many other hunting opportunities and methods becoming available to hunters, a large increase in coyote populations (in my area) as well changes in habitat management due to decreasing funds available to public agencies.  I hunt mainly public land surrounding the camp I own with doing occasional road trips to public lands in other counties within the APR area.  The deer populations appear to be relatively low throughout the APR areas I have hunted when compared to areas of southern Michigan I hunt.

I see the APRs as an attempt by the State and area businesses to encourage hunting these low population areas as there are not as many deer to attract downstate hunters more than as a true management tool.  Hunter numbers are down significantly in my area compared to 15  to 20 years ago.  People just are not willing to take time and spend money to travel north when you may not even see a deer.  The chance of seeing a big deer may help attract a few people north.  I went from seeing 1 buck per 10 does in the 90's to seeing 3 does and one buck now on the typical weekend.  I think that reflects changes in  the relative population distribution and the deer densities in the areas I hunt.  With the current low populations and my limited hunting time, if I have a shot a legal buck, I'm taking it. Everyone I talk to that hunts in my area expresses the same. 

I am hopeful that the baiting ban being implemented for 2019 will force the deer to be more active and distribute more evenly across my hunting areas as the other big problem we have is the larger private land owner's putting out large quantities of bait that hold deer in their area and off the public land.

[Jon Stewart]

Roger, In no way am I arguing with you or anyone else as I consider this a pretty civil discussion which on the net don't happen too often.  We try as hard as we can to identify buttons and don't shoot them. Actually I can't remember the last time a button was shot on my property.  I guess I am happy with the APR in my area and I would be just as happy if they were lifted. It really doesn't matter much to me at my age anymore.

Deer drives haven't happened on my place in probably 30 years and were done by my neighbor after we left for the season.  I have never heard of a deer drive in bow season.

[Burly]

There is a group around my place in the NWL that do drives every weekend. They use xbows and wear Bluetooth head pieces.

[Chain2]

I think this discussion has been fantastic. Both sides of the aisle, as they say, have done so in a very civilized manner. I’ve gotten to see the other side and ponder their points. It would be fun to do in person, maybe near Knob Creek, we could let Jack and Jim referee!

[bear mike]

I think this discussion has been fantastic. Both sides of the aisle, as they say, have done so in a very civilized manner. I’ve gotten to see the other side and ponder their points. It would be fun to do in person, maybe near Knob Creek, we could let Jack and Jim referee!

Where is knob Creek

[Chain2]

It’s on the top shelf in the right past Woodford Reserve.

[bear mike]

It’s on the top shelf in the right past Woodford Reserve.

Got ya 

[Bowwild]

I'm not a fan of spread or antler point restrictions. We had a bunch of WMAs in KY with 15" or greater rule for a few years. They were abolished.  Sort of like taking the straightest, tallest, and most limb-free white oaks from a stand .... high-grading.

QDM is a big-time turn-off for me because of those types of rules. 

I AM a huge fan of 1 buck/season rules.  That did the trick for KY since its inception in the early 90's. It doesn't take but 2-3 years to show impressive results.  Improved our herd's age structure dramatically.