Brainstorming ideas for a traditional bowhunting group in KS

[Jhawk]

I have been considering putting together a traditional only bow hunting lease in Kansas, something similar to what Kenny does in Missouri.  I am by no means trying to take anything away from Kenny and  I hope my using his operation as inspiration is a compliment to him.

My purpose for posting now is to gauge peoples interest prior to making the investment in securing properties.  If this becomes a reality, I will register as a sponsor and proceed from there.  My goal is to provide traditional bowhunters an opportunity to hunt private land in Kansas at an affordable rate.
 
I live in central Kansas and all the ground I am looking at will be near my farm.  The properties will be small parcels of 80 acres to 240 acres and I am looking at trying to secure 750-1000 acres.  All the properties are agricultural ground with some hardwoods, CRP, pasture and some creek bottoms.  We have a strong deer herd with a lot of 1.5 to 2.5 year old bucks.  I believe the last two deer I killed were 2.5 year old and they grossed at 124 and 134.  I think it would also be a realistic expectation to see mature bucks, especially during the rut.

I have lodging at my farm and it consists of a furnished studio apartment built into my 60x80 metal building (built 2016).  The apartment has a kitchenette with stove and fridge, a full bathroom with washer and dryer, kitchen table, two single beds and lounge chair.  It’s nothing fancy, but it’s comfortable and has been great for numerous guests the past two years.  The shop has an indoor shooting rage out to 25 yards and equipment to butcher your deer.  We also live on the property if anything else is needed.  The apartment is set up for two people, but a 3rd could fit without too much trouble.

The hunts will be non-guided and will cater to hunters who enjoy being on their own.  I will provide maps, scouting reports and areas to go, but the hunter will be required to choose their own spots and set their own stands.  I may consider setting out a few stands, but I would need to research the liability issues and reality of these spots getting burned out.  Baiting is legal in Kansas, but I will not bait any of the properties.

Hunters will be available to arrive Sunday afternoon and stay until the following Sunday morning.  This will give you six full days of hunting.  Hunts will be limited to two hunters per week.  The two hunters will have full access to all available properties and I will help as much as possible.  I work full time and will be limited to phone calls and evening assistance.  If someone tags out early, we have decent pheasant, quail and duck hunting.  If someone chooses to bird hunt, this will not be on our leased ground and will be on the local walk in areas or state managed lands.

For this to work, I will need to charge the following.  $500 for rental of the apartment.  For the weeks of Sept. 29th through October 20th, the hunting rates will be $750 per hunter.  For the weeks of October 27th through Nov. 24th, the hunting rates will be $1000 per hunter.  These costs break down to $166 per day to hunt early season and $208 to hunt the rut.
 
Licensing will not be part of the above expense and 2018 fees were $97.50 for the license and $442.50 for the tag.  Youth (15 years or younger) fees were $42.50 for the license and $117.50 for the tag.  KS hunting licenses are good for 365 days and if you wanted, you could return in the spring and hunt turkey on the same license.  One of my main concerns is Kansas is a draw state and applications are open around the 1st of April.  Draw odds are very good at 99% success, but this will eliminate people that don’t plan in advance.

I am not looking for people commit, rather I am looking to see how many people think this is something they would consider factoring in location, cost, type of hunt etc.  Also, please feel free to add what you would change or adjust to make this more appealing for you. Thanks to all and mods I hope this is not out of line.  I am not looking for free marketing on Tradgang and as I mentioned earlier I will go through the proper channels if this idea makes it to the next step.

[HOGLESS2]

This sounds more like a outfitter hunt then a lease. I would be interested in it.

[old_goat2]

Is that apartment price you quoted per hunter or split between two it would be $250?

[kskickapoo]

Help a guy become an outfitter...no thanks.  Have enough of those in KS...

[Jhawk]

Apartment would be $500 total and split between the two. 

I am not interested in becoming an outfitter.  I have a job and hosting two hunters a week for a couple months sure isn't going to make a guy much money.  The reality is land is going to be leased up and it doesn't matter if I like it or not.  I can't afford to lease ground on my own and this option would allow me to have ground to hunt, allow other like minded bowhunters a opportunity to hunt without a huge investment and yes I would make a small amount of money for my efforts.

[Clj]

Not trying to start something here but I think part of the reason the age structure of the herd in KS has changed is because of something you mentioned. People shooting 120-130 inch young deer. Over time, that combined with lots of tags/pressure, disease, drought, etc. starts to catch up. I would be more interested in properties where the mentality is to shoot mature (5.5 year old) deer or otherwise eat a tag. Just my opinion.

[Jhawk]

Thanks for the input.  I don’t think it’s a realistic expectation to only shoot 5.5 year old deer in KS or any state for that matter.  I don’t claim to be a whitetail expert, but I don’t think many deer would get killed if that was persons criteria.
 
My goal is to establish a place where I and fellow trad hunters can hunt at an affordable cost.  A place where we can enjoy being out in the woods and have a good chance at killing what is in my opinion a great deer.  Hunting is supposed to be fun and every time I read someone’s journey of chasing a specific deer for years on end, they don’t seem to be having fun and it’s not something I want to do in this stage of my life.  Much to my chagrin, not everyone thinks the same way I do and I am slowly becoming ok with it.
 
I have quite a bit of public ground around here, but I had way more fun this year hunting my private ground than I did the public.  There is something about having the confidence going into an area and knowing the last time someone has been in the area.  You obviously can’t get that on public.  While I did not pay to hunt this year and probably won’t have to pay for years to come, I don’t want to sit on my heels and wait until it’s taken away.  To think it’s not is being naïve.
 
I did have a good conversation last night and it gave me some things to think through.  Here are some of the thoughts; Just getting 2 or 3 guys and going in on lease together, how do you keep an area from getting burned out, my original plan allowed for around 16 guys plus myself and will this put too much pressure on the areas I am looking at.

Again, thanks for allowing me to present this here.  If this is an idea that is destined for failure, I would rather figure it out now.

[Clj]

I understand completely. I will say that you will notice the effects of 10-16 guys shooting 1.5 to 3.5 year olds every year. If you only care about a season or two, that’s one thing. If you care about the properties and quality of the hunt over several years, that’s different.

[gregg dudley]

Sounds like you have the basis for a good plan and it is something that I would find attractive if schedules permitted.  You obviously have put some thought into it.  Like any business model, there will be people that it appeals to and people that it doesn't. The prices that you quoted are very reasonable when compared to other opportunities for a week long vacation, which is essentially what this is.  Best of luck in what you are trying to put together.

[GCook]

From your last post I read you want to lease more ground you can enjoy hunting on and get a few others to pitch in and hunt it to share the cost.
Nothing wrong with that but honestly if I were to pay for land in Kansas to hunt it would be to shoot a mature buck.  Two and a half year old bucks wouldn't be worth the money or the drive.  Of course 20 years ago it would have been different but I would think most of the guys who shoot trad, could afford such a deal and were looking for that type of adventure, would like to shoot a bruiser not an average 130 class deer.

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk

[Bowguy67]

The 130 class average deer got me laughing. 130 isn’t average around here but I get the point. Myself I’m not a outfit type guy and that’s really what I’d call it.
I personally would consider and have considered starting a trad lease. As in no profit just a bunch of like minded guys sharing costs. I’d allow no baiting either. Good luck to ya

[9 Shocks]

I would be interested.  And with 750-1000 acres, the opportunity to hold deer would be greatly increased even with fairly steady hunting pressure given that hunters are using the ground in a smart manner.  I.e...hunting the wind etc...

[Clj]

What unit?

[Bigriver]

I think the idea has potential. One thing my old North Dakota lease owner did was run the hunts every other week. Cuts into profit, but when the new hunters arrived, the place had settled down and the deer were way less skittish. I think it made a difference, and was better for long term goals. It was a 5000 acre ranch with both mulies and whitetails, same kind of potential you talk about for bucks. Last year I went was 850.00 per man total with lodging, but that was 2005 or 06

[Jhawk]

Unit 15 in Kansas.
 
Thanks for the feedback Bigriver.  Those rates are great I am guessing the guy that ran the lease also owned the property.
 
I think there is faulty logic on growing big bucks and yes my logic may be faulty.  I agree that if you had a huge piece of land, you could have some control on the age structure of the deer running around but I don’t think it’s possible with 200 acres here and 200 acres there.  Let’s say I hunt a piece of ground and every year I shoot the first 2.5 year old 120” buck that gave me a shot.  One could argue that there are not any mature bucks around and the property only has young deer but I would generally disagree.  I think there a lot of mature bucks around that no one knows about.
 
My friend’s land adjoins the ground I have permission to hunt.  His 11 year old son killed a great 3.5 10 point this year.  There will be a few bucks killed in rifle season and this has been going on ever year for a long time.  The day I killed my buck this year I walked up on another 2.5 buck as I was searching for my deer.  I doe hunted a few days later and saw a nice 2.5-3.5 buck.  I scouted the other night and I saw 5 bucks all together in the evening.  Would this information say there are not any mature buck on this ground?  I don’t run cameras, but my buddy does and on this section (640 acres) there is at least one giant running around.  I will probably never see this deer, but he is there, and you never know.

I have a young family, a wife that would rather me be home than in the woods for two months and full-time job.  I killed my deer this year on my first sit.  I killed my deer last year on my fist sit.  I am thrilled with both deer and would shoot them again anytime.  Yes, I could have passed these deer up and held out for a mature buck, but that sure is hard to do and right now I am not willing to do that.  This speaks about me and where I am at as a hunter and is not a reflection of the property. 

[LITTLEBIGMAN]

J Hawk

I would be interested in that. Yup for sure!

[KSdan]

Wensels ran clubs/opps like this in various states including KS years ago. And an opp at a true 125" is a deer of a lifetime for most bowhunters.  Not canned. Virtually DIY except the ground is secured and some scout info up front is a great opp. Key: having enough ground so guys hunt undisturbed turf. Good Luck. 

[Cyclic-Rivers]

Good idea, but I personally wouldn't pay that kind of money to hunt property with a lot of pressure.  You mentioned Kenny m. He only brings in groups every other week or so.  He doesn't personally hunt the property unless it's after the groups are done for the year. 

 I wouldn't pay what you need to run the place for a chance at a skiddish 2.5 year old. Of course I'm biased based on my opportunities locally.

It sounds to me you want a good piece of property to hunt for yourself and have the opportunity to meet some like minded trad bowhunters.  There's cheaper and less head aches with other methods. Also less risk. 

[jamesh76]

From your last post I read you want to lease more ground you can enjoy hunting on and get a few others to pitch in and hunt it to share the cost.

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk

This is nothing which interests me being a resident. However, the post interest me. This is what I gathered from your post also, a desire to lease more ground for yourself and or a friend(s) to hunt who live locally. You mention making some money in your plan, not necessarily limiting yourself or friends opportunity to hunt.  I'm not here to discourage your desire to outfit or lease to provide an opportunity for non residents.  As any Kansas resident knows, land owners are not very welcoming to Non Resident hunters unless they are making money on the property. Poaching, trash, trespassing etc. has put a bad taste in their mouths.  Unless you know property owners or they are family. It is even difficult at times for residents to secure private land.

There is thousands upon thousands of WIHA and private hunting access in KS which is open to everyone. Non-residents and residents are very successful on public land available and  120-130 class bucks are seen fairly often on these. I see pope and b/c deer every year on public. Seen one while driving around Hillsdale this year which would have gone 180+. This being during the daylight in a very high traffic hunting area. As stated NR tags are approx. $600 a year.

Good luck on your endeavor.

[Jhawk]

Thank you everyone for your input.  This is the first time I have been really involved in a thread here on Tradgang and its interesting to see the direction this has gone and how people are interpreting the posts.  I am sure much of this is due to me not communicating clearly and I can see how a topic can easily get off course.  Again, makes me thankful for this community here to be able to discuss without the arguing often seen on other forums.

I am not trying to secure a place for my local friends to hunt.  I am not trying to get a bunch of nonresidents to pay for my hobby.  I am trying to create a quality opportunity for traditional bowhunters only at an affordable price.  I am trying utilize the resources of my farm in some different ways.  I am trying expand my own hunting opportunities.  I also think I would enjoy sharing the area that I live in with others and being a part of someone else’s success.

I think there is enough interest to proceed.  I am not sure if I will run with my original plan or just try and get a group of guys that would like to share a lease.