Can We Create Better Trad Bow Hunting Equipment Regulations?

[nineworlds9]

Dave Rice are you making your proposal under the assumption that the sea of nonhunters and antihunters out there that could potentially influence the regulations you describe contains folks with a rational thought process such as yourself?  You'd be naïve to think so.  The only way it could possibly work is via a 50 state panel of VETTED hunters and wildlife biologists, but have you stopped to think what could happen if many of the ecofascist conservation groups caught wind of a proposal such as yours?  It would be like blood in the water.  One of the few protections for our sport is the fact that 50 legislative bodies exist to ennumerate hunting laws, and frankly I dont want someone from Oregon telling me how I can hunt whitetails in Florida.   

[nineworlds9]

Oh all that and Ive never heard of a grown man out there now deliberately hunting game with a walmart plastic 15# kids bow.  Id like to know where this stuff is happening?   Honestly draw weight is a non-issue imho.  Now shooting skill...there is your real can of worms, shall we introduce regs on tradbow shot accuracy instead?  I can pick that one apart too.  There are hordes of folks who cant set up a 5 pin sight to save their life and guys who've made marginal hits on deer at 25 yds with a 70# wheel bow with no recovery, so higher draw weight is not automatically more lethal.   

[Miikka]

To offer some outside perspective in Finland where I live we have quite the strict laws concerning bowhunting.
 -Bow of any type must be 40#@shooters draw lenght.
-The arrowhead for Euroopan deer must be at least 22mm or 0,8661 inches in diameter
-The arrowhead for small game must be either blunt or a broadhead that is considered "sufficient"
-For deer the hunter must pass a shooting test of 4 arrows shot inside of a circle of 23cm or ~9 inch diameter in 180 sec time limit. All arrows must be inside of the target zone.

Though some regulations are imho needed to keep the dumb 2% of hunters at bay, I've heard of a guy shooting at a moose with 30# wheelbow with a fieldpoint. I'd say dont rock the boat or you'll have this whole mess to deal with.

[McDave]

-For deer the hunter must pass a shooting test of 4 arrows shot inside of a circle of 23cm or ~9 inch diameter in 180 sec time limit. All arrows must be inside of the target zone.

What distance is the target for this test?  Is that 4 out of 4 arrows, or 4 out of ?

[Miikka]

Sorry about missing that info!
At 18m or 59 feet all 4/4 arrows in the target zone.

[McDave]

That's pretty good shooting!  Do you get more than one chance if you get nervous the first time you shoot?

[Miikka]

Yes you can try multiple times but each try cost 20€/$ as a fee for the organizing entity (shooting/hunting club usually). So might get expensive really fast If you have bad nerves.

[McDave]

Sounds like a pretty realistic test.  I would like to have 4 arrows in a 6” group at 20 yards (or meters), but 4 arrows in a 9” group at 18 meters seems adequate for a test, giving the applicant a little leeway.  I don't know how many of the people I regularly shoot with could do that, although they probably would be able to eventually after enough 20€ tries.

[McDave]

Sorry, just realized that 18 meters is approx 20 yards, so there's not much leeway there, but 6” vs 9” gives some leeway.

[OkKeith]

Hey Cameron... how are things down your way? Good I hope.

When I was checking bow hunters mostly I was looking for correct permits, tags and liscenses. As a bow hunter myself I was pretty familiar with the equipment.  I never put a scale on a bow. Then again I never ran into a situation where I felt I needed too. I had one with me but never came across a bow I thought might be near enough to being too light I needed to check it. Just my experience.

Wildlife Law Enforcment Officers see.enough bows that they can tell if a bow is light. If they think they might be, they will check it out.
OkKeith

[dirtguy]

Is there really a a need for better regulations?  IN my state, you have to use a #40 draw weight bow and a minimum 7/8 inch wide broad head.  I cant remember a time when I heard of a violation of those standards.  Most of the time (and I do follow the arrest notices) people are pinched for jacklighting or hunting on land where they have no permission or hunting out of season, all of which amount to poaching.

[Soonerlongbow]

In all honesty I think our hunting is already too regulated as it is. Heck, every single thing we do is too regulated.

[Jon Stewart]

Which one of you guys wants to tell that little pollack that I am married to that hunts and kills deer with her 32# Bear cub or her 34# Bear Kodiak Magnum that she can't use those bows anymore, lol.

And to the states that don't allow stone points. They have no clue what they are talking about when it comes to banning them. I use stone that I knap and have killed deer with them.

Sorry but there are way too many regulations now.

[mgf]

LONG POST WARNING!!!

I'm certainly no physicist ... but with equal arrow weight the energy produced with 40# at 28 inches is the same as 40# at 31 inches. A pound of lead and a pound of feathers weighs the same. I'm sure there is some small variability due to the cast of the bow, limb length and other such that affect arrow speed.

 
OkKeith

I don't think that's true. While both are 40 pounds the longer draw is pushing on the arrow over a greater distance resulting in more total energy under the force/draw curve.

To include your pound of feathers and lead... While they do weigh the same more energy is required to lift that pound of feathers or lead 31" than to lift it 28" inches.

It's an area under the curve thing.

[mgf]

What's the purpose for these sorts of regulations?

If I were a deer (the hunted) I would prefer that the hunters be lousy marksmen and shooting very light bows because my goal would be to escape. Wounded is better than dead and mildly wounded is better than severely wounded.

As a hunter, I say let them go with insufficient equipment and skills...more game for me.

Sorry, these sorts of laws come from folks who just want to push other folks around.

[Dave Rice]

Not surprised by the replies. I'll just observe that it's not a question of whether we're being regulated, we are. My question was whether it would help if there was some rational thought behind the regulations, and the consensus is that it wouldn't. Fair enough. I agree that even among hunters, very few have any idea of what is an effective archery hunting setup, much less traditional equipment.

Miikka, I spend quite a lot of time in Finland--mostly Oulu where my company HQ is, as well as time in Hanko, Peranka, Kuusamo... Great outdoor and hunting culture. Like the archery example you mentioned, rifle hunters too have practical tests--can you hit your target, and they have to prove it every few years.

[Dave Rice]

LONG POST WARNING!!!

I'm certainly no physicist ... but with equal arrow weight the energy produced with 40# at 28 inches is the same as 40# at 31 inches. A pound of lead and a pound of feathers weighs the same. I'm sure there is some small variability due to the cast of the bow, limb length and other such that affect arrow speed.

Length of power stroke matters, and it's a pretty big effect.

If you see a force draw curve, it's the area under the curve that illustrates energy that can be transferred to the arrow (and limbs, hand shock,...). Of course, as the draw gets longer, the curve extends increasing the area under the curve.

Regardless of what the charts say, you can prove it to yourself just watching the trajectory of a an arrow from a 40#@28" bow vs a 40#@31" bow using the same weight of arrow. A chrono just quantifies it.

[pavan]

The PETA super liberal woman that lives down the street, called the cops because she thought that I gave her a dirty look, has killed 4 deer with her car, 3 in the last three years.   Considering what is going on in our government, the fewer regulations that they mess with and the more regulations that they eliminate, the better.   Change is coming, there is going to be a serious dip in road before it gets here, but change is coming.   I have been witness to a good number of deer killed with 38@26"  bows, The trick is not so much in the number as it is in the shooter and the broad head and flight of the arrow.  Simple regulations of numbers on bows cannot make that happen.  In fact, the least important thing is the number on the side of a bow.

[YosemiteSam]

CA regs state that for big game, broadheads need to be 7/8" minimum and your bow must be able to cast a hunting arrow at least 130 yards.  Seems pretty flexible and reasonable to me.  Considering our gun regs, the flexibility we have in the bowhunting regs is pretty nice.

Regulations are best when they restrict our behaviors (bag limits, seasons) rather than prescribe them.  Some people read the 10 commandments and see nothing but negative rules (Don't do this; don't do that).  But there is inherent wisdom in negative commandments over prescriptive ones.  Prescriptive rules (you must do this and only this) limit behaviors to only one course of action.  Negative rules leave the door wide open to just about anything except one single behavior.  In other words, there is more individual freedom with negative rules than prescriptive rules.

Personally, I wouldn't mind seeing more restrictions out here on some types of equipment.  I can point the finger at other hunters & their equipment but it's not really addressing the problems we face in our woods.