Don Thomas PBS mag letter

[Hogtamer]

Don: "Mean high water mark..."  That's what it says in Georgia, too, as long as it's a "navigable" stream.  I actually had an civil engineer put a numerical value to it.   Sometimes regulations ain't a bad thing, especially when nobody knows what the hell they mean! Just make sure you have a copy!  And just so everybody's clear, I have no problem with what private landowners do with their property; private property rights are the essence of our society.  But here's what kills me:  "NO TRESPASSING  US GOVERNMENT PROPERTY."  Especially here at tax time....

[Ron Goodrum]

Interesting topic. Living in Illinois and already feeling the pinch that Mr. Thomas has eluded to, I'll offer my take on this and the future as feeble as it may seem. Being a middle income family I can no longer afford to hunt the better ground that has been leased in my state and it is becoming more difficult to find hunting rights every year. The wealthy are in control. The result is that hunting is no longer a legitimate priority for me, I devote my time to other past times that I can afford and access with less difficulty. As a result I no longer put emphasis on supporting hunter rights or issues. This is sad. My question is how many of you will continue to support our hunters rights for the anti hunting legislation when you can no longer afford to actively participate? Do you think that the few wealthy will be able to fend off anti hunting legislation without the strength of the masses? My opinion is that they will not and I foresee the end of all hunting during my lifetime.

Ron Goodrum

[Doug S]

What about adding the Pit/Rob 11% tax on   hunting related income to go toward purchase and access. Or a similar type. ALL money going for new access. Why wouldn't this work?
  Missouri gets that 1% on all sales and seems to have the ability to purchase good public hunting land. They also are the ONLY state growing hunter numbers. 101 for every 100 lost. National average is 30 less.
BTW South Dakota has a law that all section lines are public domain (future roads). Therefore you can legally walk these to access land-locked public land. I doubt another state would adopt that today.
Or a Trophy tax.  

[PAPA BEAR]

amen don.had an encounter with some boy's from california two years ago,they set up camp right in the middle of a usfs road which just happens to be my hunting area of 13 years near burns oregon.told me they were hunting the area and i could'nt hunt it. started talkin money for this money for that,in the end he moved his camp off the road via a state trooper (warden)..my point is money does talk but only so loud as the guy thats got his hand out

[Dave Lay]

Wow.. makes me glad our deer herd sucks here, we can bow hunt the 2 million plus or so acres of public here with out to much competition, But I do totally agree with Mr. Thomas. I also feel money and antlers, B&C and P&Y and the "put my stupid face on TV"  are killing our beloved lifestyle. I have always appreciated the doe kills or smaller bucks that folks write about, I have been guilty of a hero picture every now and then, but its from dumb luck on usually public land. All this makes me really think.... I took a all day hike in a wilderness area this weekend, didnt see a deer or any large game at all, did hear a couple turkeys gobble, but I am seriously thinkin about just going to get back to squirrel huntin and other small game. All this crap about money for antlers is terrible and makes me go the other way, Leasing has always been a way of life in southern Arkansas but North and central is National Forrest and that, with the state management areas we have probably close to 3 million public acres. But as I said above the huntin sucks on most of it but at least you can enjoy the time in the woods... I can really see what the concern is after you western guys spoke up..

[John Nail]

"how many of you will continue to support our hunters rights for the anti hunting legislation when you can no longer afford to actively participate?"

Ron G. makes a good point. Let's face it: times are hard. The price of everything is going up. If you are on a budget, and saving for a hunt, something else has to go lacking,

[Molson]

Well along comes Ray and Lenny to make me think about what I said.  I used the words "greed" and "for profit" in my post while thinking only of a specific individual I've known personally for years who makes videos for a well-known outdoor company.  This guy has become a walking billboard for all that is wrong with the business of hunting.

Generalizing and lumping this guy in with the many quality outfitters and guides who provide a valuable service is just wrong and somewhat ignorant on my part.

I suppose part of the problem is these types of issues generally evoke an emotional response first from those it directly affects.  Fact is, it's a difficult thing to regulate attitude and intention, and to a large degree that is where this problem lies.

[Owlgrowler]

I certainly don't have any solutions to the problem, maybe a bit of insight. Hunting land here in NJ began getting scoffed up by clubs willing to pay for hunting rights back in the '70's, maybe earlier.And it wasn't for the size of the antlers.MANY of those same farms are now sub-divisions. There are alot of hunters here that don't hunt NJ anymore, because by the time you buy your license and permits here,(hundereds of dollars), club and lease fees,(Thousands of dollars), you can have a week of quality hunting out west.

As far as commercialization of hunting is concerned, Who commercialized bow hunting more than my beloved Fred Bear?

And when you point your finger at trophy hunters I personally take a bit of offense at that, even though I've never paid for a lease or club or outfitter, but I'm in pretty good company because the ones who wound me up on mature buck hunting were none other than the Wensel brothers,Bob Fratzke and Roger Rothaar.

No my friends, it's simply that our great nation, where else in this world of starving people is there a multi million, perhaps billion dollar industry devoted to the growing of food plots for game animals? our great nation's economy revolves around new housing starts. That is not good for hunting. Just not enough land, too many people.

[laddy]

In Iowa we had, a couple that I can think of in particular, dandy public hunting areas mostly bought and paid for by hunters, Brushy Creek and Volga Rec. Before you knew it politicians and lawyers from my home town clear across the state diverted funding to turn these areas into giant motor home parks with giant stock damn, and yes I meant that, lakes for boaters, replacing the clear running streams with awful smelling muddy cesspools.  On a farm we hunted for twenty years, 900 acres, hunters came and went with no money request from the farmer.  Then he let a multimillion dollar surgeon on the land,  he threw money at the farmer, who still would let anybody on for free, but the good doctor then proceeded to go out of his way to try to force everyone else off because he parted with some of his precious money.  I went back to hunting public land because this is supposed to be fun, not some damn greedy land grab.  If that is what it takes I will quick hunting with my bow for the same reason I quick hunting ducks, not enough places for the poor man to hunt without getting forced out by aggressive land hordes that can't share the resource.  A lot of this also has to do with the desire to shoot record book bucks.  The chances go up when you have no competition and no one else scenting up your hunting area.  When one hears of how the hunters numbers are going down, that is the reason for it and not antihunters.  Come to think of it last year during turkey season both times we went out and had toms working we got rushed by shotgun turkey hunters, that ruined the chance for the kid I had with me to get a shot.  I am giving up taking kids turkey hunting and turkey hunting for myself, since I can not get access to anywhere that will not happen.

[Wary Buck]

I don't have the time right now to read all the responses--got about halfway in--but a few thoughts I'd like to share.

1.  I've said for a long time that this current trend of skipping small game hunting and heading straight to the big game hunting ranks is not a good thing for a ton of reasons.  They said just as much way back in the Witchery of Archery and it is ever so true today.  

2.  The point made earlier where 40 acres in the east may have more habitat/critters than 400 or 4000 in western states...so very true.  We have to be careful when making any blanket statements on these topics.  

3.  When I read Don's post, knowing him fairly well, it made me sad.  I too have multiple interests--bowhunting surely being very high on the list--and the thought of hunting becoming so frustrated that I am forced to "switch" to something else like fishing, camping, etc. is scary.  I love where I currently live and still (for the time being) have good hunting close by.  Those days may short-lived, I'm afraid with even non-ag 's*&^' land going for $3-4,000/ac. in eastern Nebraska.  I'm the sort where that may mean I'll be looking to move to a place where I can still hunt if and when I'm priced out here.

4.  The record books were begun with good intentions, but the current insatiable appetite for 'book' bucks has been bad for most of us in keeping our hunting spots.  I'm willing to pay money if I have to, to hunt.  Heck we already do with how expensive the hobby/lifestyle is w/o lease money...gas, equipment, licenses, clothing, etc.  But leasing has created a whole new can of worms, and much of that has been with the record books in mind.

In fact, there are very few trends today in hunting that bode well for the future...

[Biggie Hoffman]

I'm not trying to start an argument with Uncle Don cause he and I hashed this out privately a few years back with neither of us giving an inch. We're still friends but have just agreed to disagree on this subject. But here's my opinion for what it's worth;

This country is great because of the free enterprise system. That's supply and demand.
I have no problem with leasing land to control it's use and produce a product be it pumpkins or wheat or big deer. I work two jobs to pay fees to hunt on land that doesn't belong to me. I love it.

[JohnV]

How much effort do people put into having a place to hunt?  Perhaps I should rephrase that to "how much effort are you willing to make?"  I often wonder.  When I was growing up we had few deer to hunt in Kentucky.  Going on a deer hunt meant driving hours to a location that actually had a few deer to chase. When I lived in the Detroit metro area it meant driving an hour or more outside of town and knocking on lots of doors.  It sometimes involved hunting on public land as well.   Places were always available to hunt...it was a matter of how bad I wanted to hunt and how much effort I was willing to make.

[FOX SQUIRREL NUTS]

I think more people have issues with the volumes of leases versus the idea of a lease.  Do 4 men need 1000 acres for success?  It will obviously vary per region but the overall net effect is you people who truly have more than they think they need.  I sacrificed some of my child's educational money to buy because I feel the woods has taught me more about life than a book.  I hope our herds explode and weaken in quality which should bring this issue to a for front or cause the demise of hunting.  Either way we have our answer...

[laddy]

We are shopping for land to hunt on or own, with the high price of corn crop land is out of our range.  With the dollar going down and stock market crumbling those richer than me, shifting their investments, are beating me out of the places we have found so far.  I believe our economy is being manipulated.  I keep looking for private land to hunt on, but in our part of the state there are no sleepers that are getting over looked.  Some of this private property only sees the owners once or twice a season, when it was in the hands of the friendly farmers in our area the same acres provided an influx of bowhunters through out the season.  If we do end up buying our own, it will be primitive archery only and we are planning on sharing, with those restrictions strictly upheld.

[shoot4fun]

Get used to the idea "play to pay" What's happening to Don in Montana happened a few years ago to us here in Kansas!
I lost one of my favorite hunting spot to none other than the Wensel Bros, who leased up the area, an area I hunted for free. Right next to them were some fellas from Texas, who thought they needed to pay also. Truth be known, they probably could have hunted for free also, except that they wouldn't of had it to themselves or their clients.
No bad blood here, I'm just say'in GET USED TO IT !
Some fella a few pages back hit the nail right on the head. You advertised the idea and it sold.
Same thing happened to the Army Ammunition Plant in McAlester. Oklahoma residents(or nonresidents with lifetime licences) used to have a very good chance of drawing each year, that is, until someone decdided to write about the area and their experience in TB. There was a time I was lucky enough to draw 5 years in a row. Since the story came out several years ago, I've drawn once. Several of my buddies haven't been drawn at all.
If you want to keep a good thing, better keep it to yourself or be very selective on who you tell, but then again, that doesn't sell magazines.
I guess it's a catch 22, so like I said...Get used to it.
John

[lt-m-grow]

There seems to be a thread in here that hunting = free.  That is very romantic and very untrue.  I don't know if modern day hunting (say the last fifty years or so) was ever free.  It always cost something.  So if it costs something, then the question is how much?   Or what are the things I must pay for and is a leasing/access fee one of them?   I paid $650 for a MT license last year is that too much?   I am sure not the one to say.    I would also add that the cost of everything goes up.  Hunting is not any different.

So given that...I have a thought for you. What if capitalism isn't the problem?  What if it is the solution?  Packaging is cornerstone of marketing you know.  So if the problem today is a small number of  folks -- leasing large tracks of land for the year.  Maybe the solution is larger numbers of hunters leasing land for several days.   More hunters, more money in a given year.  More money coming into MT or elsewhere.

I am not offering the above example as a "solution".   Heck I know it is already done in places.   I am just saying that capitalism affects our lives in many ways beyond hunting, so expecting hunting to be any different is goofy.    BTW:  You know politics and money are bed-fellows so any legislative changes in MT or elsewhere are also responses to capitalism in many ways.  

Lastly,  I would also offer that capitalism has a way - in time - of finding a nice balancing point between differing positions which we clearly have.

What I do know, is quiting isn't the answer and I suspect so does Don.

- Dave

[Mike Brown]

I have stated it here more than once.

I hunted New Mexico a few times in the early 80's.  I joined their state assocaition.  The newletter that I recieved stated two things that burned my ass.  #1.  Price the non-resident out of the state.  #2.  Make 80% of the revenue from the non-resident.  Most of the land is National Forest.

It made me stop hunting out of state.  But don't gripe about coming to Texas and having to pay a fee to acess PRIVATE LAND.

As far as I am concerned other HUNTERS kicked me out not ANT-HUNTERS.

Now I recieve letters wanting donatations from the Elk foundation and such.  Yeah right!

[Terry Green]

I know these type of threads get testy at times...but please refrain from personal attacks and name calling.  Nothing good comes from that, but if you leave that out, something might.

Thanks.

[Morning Star]

Mr. Thomas,

We share a very common thread between Montana and Iowa.  The issues we face have tough and limited answers for sure.  
Here in Iowa we are currently attempting to ammend our constitution to include sustainable funding for our natural resources.  One of our "many" issues is we are at the bottom of the country as far as public hunting acres per State.  The demand for limited access has been unrelenting and very damaging to Iowa's hunting heritage.  Iowa needs to place priority on securing public areas for our residents.  Even with a large increase in funding possibly in the future, I fear we won't be able to secure enough ground before the demand has taken it's fullest toll though.  Most Iowan's, (like folks from Montana) simply can not afford to compete with people from out of State.

Anyhow, it is nice to see a person of your celebrity take a stance on this issue, many obviously won't.  I suppose it would be career suicide for some.

You have my support.    

[Biggie Hoffman]

Morning Star, you are welcome. Us out of staters have made boosted the Iowa economy tenfold.
It's a shame that everything the IBA does is so selfish in nature cause basically, it's a good bunch of folks.