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Author Topic: Hill bow, do they all kick like a mule?  (Read 4307 times)

Offline Faith In Flight

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Hill bow, do they all kick like a mule?
« on: February 10, 2007, 10:47:00 PM »
I love longbows, and I love Howard Hill. Wanted a Hill bow for some time, I tried one out someone had today at the range. It was 54lbs@ 28". I shoot with an extreamly loose grip. I shot the bow, and I have to say, i've never had a bow kick me that hard. Do they all have that much hand shock? I found myself wondering how howard hill shot that bow with 80lbs of draw, then I remembered the pictures of him shooting and seeing him allow the bow to spin totally around in his hand. So im assuming it definatly takes a loose grip.

Offline mike g

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Re: Hill bow, do they all kick like a mule?
« Reply #1 on: February 11, 2007, 01:00:00 AM »
A Hill bow needs to griped a certin way....And a arrow that is at least 10 grains per pound works too....
"TGMM Family of the Bow"

Offline Dick in Seattle

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Re: Hill bow, do they all kick like a mule?
« Reply #2 on: February 11, 2007, 11:31:00 AM »
Like Mike g said, it's all in the grip.  Go to:

 www.howardhillshooters.com

you'll find a ton of Hill info, pictures of beautiful Hill bows, etc.  One of the links is to a full page of discussion and pictures specfically about grip.

I was lucky, I guess, and started out gripping it right.  I shoot only Hills now, have a wall full of them, and have yet to experience hand shock.

I did get terrible shck out of a "hybrid" longbow... so bad I couldn't hang onto it.  IMHO, you can't combine recurve and flatbow shooting or design.  If you try to combine the designs, you lose some of the best of each.  If you try to shoot both, sooner or later you're going to overgrip the recurve or grip the flatbow too loose.  At best, you'll get a bad shot; at worst had shock.

Again, that's just my opinion, but I resolved the problem by deciding which type of bow I want to shoot and then sticking to it.

dick in seattle
Dick in Seattle

"It ain't how well the bow you shoot shoots, it's how well you shoot the bow you shoot."

Offline Chris Wilson

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Re: Hill bow, do they all kick like a mule?
« Reply #3 on: February 11, 2007, 12:09:00 PM »
The ones that I've shot have.  A loose grip and heavy arrows help, but they still had noticable hand shock; to me anyway.  I've made selfbows that had far less.
"You're either trained or untrained.  When it hits the fan, you will always fall to the level of your training."

Offline Ol Man

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Re: Hill bow, do they all kick like a mule?
« Reply #4 on: February 11, 2007, 12:20:00 PM »
I shoot HH bills and can say that every once in a while one kicks hard.  I shot one like that but, that being said the brace height was extremely low and the arrow was around 7 grains per inch.  Even then it was not all that bad.  A good firm grip and heeled hand really helps.
Getting older I tend to talk to myself but, at least I know that I am as smart as the one I am talking to.

Offline Steve in Maine

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Re: Hill bow, do they all kick like a mule?
« Reply #5 on: February 11, 2007, 12:32:00 PM »
Fo Dick in Seattle,

Although I now shoot mostly my Hill 66", 60# longbow, I do have a Bob Lee hybrid, takedown 'longbow'.  It is a fantastic shooter. It really seems to have the 'best' of flatbow/recurve qualities. I just wanted to say that there is one hybrid that is a real success. My Hill kick?? Never seemed to notice...

Steve in Maine

Offline 8th Dwarf

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Re: Hill bow, do they all kick like a mule?
« Reply #6 on: February 11, 2007, 12:33:00 PM »
I shot them for years.  At the time I bought them, several, I might add, John Schulz was the Howard Hill bowyer.  He had been PERSONALLY taught to shoot and to build bows by Howard Hill.  I have not seen one of the new Hill bows that was even close to the workmanship John Schulz put out.

The kick like mules!  There you have it!  Sorry, guys, but they are HARD shooters.  I sold all but two of mine.  I have the first one he built me, which has taken well over 100 animals, and I have the #1900 Howard Hill Commemorative bow.  

I switched to Reflex/Deflex design.  Light years smooter, no hand shock, much more quiet, and MUCH faster.

It's not my intent to slam any bow company, just put out some simple truth.  If you want to shoot that old, straight design, go for it, but know that it will slam you hard when you shoot it...regardless of how you hold the grip!

Just an opinion...

Too Short
Too Short  or Too F. Short

Offline James Wrenn

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Re: Hill bow, do they all kick like a mule?
« Reply #7 on: February 11, 2007, 12:42:00 PM »
Too Short summed up my feelings as well.I have a bad elbow and a few shots with a Hill will put me out of shooting a few days.Grip it anyway you want and shoot logs but it still kicks more than most bows would with light weight arrows.You got to really love them to shoot them because it is not shooting qualities that make them popular.It is the name on the bow. jmo
....Quality deer management means shooting them before they get tough....

Offline trh1

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Re: Hill bow, do they all kick like a mule?
« Reply #8 on: February 11, 2007, 12:47:00 PM »
ttt

Offline AkDan

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Re: Hill bow, do they all kick like a mule?
« Reply #9 on: February 11, 2007, 12:50:00 PM »
guess I have to disagree with this.  

I've bought and sold quite a few bows mostly used including a couple big 5's and one wesley special, and currently own 2 John Schulz grandpas (all boo bows).

Both big 5's would tear ya up something bad.

The wesley was a very nice shooter, kind of suprising!

The John Schulz bows are extremely nice shooters!!!   Though I see why howard shot such a heavy bow now.

If'n you're serious about getting a hill bow, I'd get a wesley without hesitation.  If you're interested in an all boo bow like Johns bows (not the ones John built for HHA, but his all bamboo bows), You can look up Dave Miller or wait a few months as it looks like Steve Schulz (one of Johns sons) is getting into the bow building side again.  Dave was taught by John to build bows in the true hill fashion.

Offline 42WLA

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Re: Hill bow, do they all kick like a mule?
« Reply #10 on: February 11, 2007, 12:58:00 PM »
I've got a mid 80's Ted Kramer made HH Big Five. If the brace height is correct and you hold it right there is no shock. Hold wrong with low brace height and it will kick ya.

I would not trade mine for anything. I love it.
Dave Thomas
VP, Rockfish Bowhunters Club

Offline TL54

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Re: Hill bow, do they all kick like a mule?
« Reply #11 on: February 11, 2007, 01:11:00 PM »
I have three Big 5s,all 46#@30.I shoot 2016s that weigh about 520 grains.I grip them tight and I might feel a little thump for the first shot if I haven't shot them for awhile.Mine are fairly new,within the last four years,I've heard some of the older ones can really kick.

Offline JEFF B

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Re: Hill bow, do they all kick like a mule?
« Reply #12 on: February 11, 2007, 01:22:00 PM »
i had an apache jerry hill that kicked like a mule so i did the best thing i sold it. and i have never looked back since. but like all bows there are good ones and some bad ones.  :thumbsup:
'' sometimes i wake up Grumpy;
other times i let her sleep"

TGMM FAMILY OF THE BOW

Offline Archer 1

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Re: Hill bow, do they all kick like a mule?
« Reply #13 on: February 11, 2007, 01:27:00 PM »
I shoot a 60# HH Big Five, and I get no hand shock at all. I'll be turning 65 in four days, and have shot about every kind of bow over the years, except a compound, never had one of those critters, but I have shot a few R/D bows that had a noticeable kick to them. I do know, if you lock your bow arm, most any longbow will kick like a mule.
May Your Feet Always Make Happy Tracks.

Offline poekoelan

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Re: Hill bow, do they all kick like a mule?
« Reply #14 on: February 11, 2007, 01:31:00 PM »
I've never shot a Hill bow. All of my traditional experience is with self bows only, but I don't think the hand shock is the result of a straight longbow design. I believe that hand shock is the result of one of two things. Or maybe both things together. The first is a bad tiller. I don't think that's the problem because I've seen pics of them and the tiller looks fine. I think there may be a lot mass in the outer limbs. That leads to handshock every time.

And if there is too much mass in the outer limbs, it will also result in slower arrow speeds.

I hear people talking all the time about these bows kicking. Has anyone shot them through a chrony?? I would bet that they would shoot slower than another bow of the same weight and similar design that doesn't kick like that.

I'm not trying to put these bows down. Some people swear by them. And that's a good enough reason to like them in and of itself. I'm not a speed freak either. I'm just curious and asking questions because in my experience, handshock and slower arrow speeds seem to go hand in hand.

But like I said, I'm coming from a self bow only experience. Maybe other factors can lead to handshock and not effect arrow speed in a fiberglass backed bow?? I don't know. Maybe someone can enligthen me.

Offline Ghost Dog

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Re: Hill bow, do they all kick like a mule?
« Reply #15 on: February 11, 2007, 02:23:00 PM »
There are a few straight limbed bows that perform very well. The Liberty "English" is the most outstanding of them all. It perfroms more like an r/d longbow, but offers the smoothness and great stability of the Hill style bows. The bowyer is Allen Boyce.

Offline Dick in Seattle

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Re: Hill bow, do they all kick like a mule?
« Reply #16 on: February 11, 2007, 02:32:00 PM »
Hope this isn't too long, but here goes:

I’m going to venture back into the area of my own opinions/reactions… for whatever they might be worth.   I’m not qualified in mechanics, physics or muscle structure, but I suspect all play a part in this issue.  People differ in their structure… arm length, height, shooting form, etc.  It seems entirely possible that one person could shoot a bow and get shock, and another with the same bow might not.  Add to that that each bow is hand made and you can see that even two very similar bows may differ.

Given all of that, I was told that a firm, low wrist, heel down grip was mandatory for this type (Hill type) of bow… that, in fact, they were built and tillered on this basis, with the lower limb designed to accommodate the pressure from the heel of the hand.   Also that a bent elbow was critical, that a straight elbow and/or straight wrist grip would equal shock.  To me, that makes sense in that the straight wrist/elbow approach is going to provide transfer of any shock, rather than cushioning it.

Now, taking that a hair further, if you think of a bow as a giant flat spring, like any flat vibrating object, it is going to have a node… a spot where there is the least movement.  If you grip at the node, you are going to have the point of least movement, or vibration.  If your grip moves the node above or below itself, there will be more vibration or movement, i.e. shock.

If the bow’s lower limb is tillered based on an assumption that there will be pressure on the heel of the hand, changing that pressure is going to change the vibration of that limb, i.e., move the node, resulting in a greater feeling of vibration or shock in your grip.  

As an experiment, I went downstairs and tried gripping first a bow, then a long thick dowel rod, using first a loose grip centered at the thumb joint and with the wrist straight, then with the lower wrist/heel of hand approach.  I found that it was nearly impossible to keep any pressure at the heel of the hand and still have any power in the gripping fingers above that point.  Conversely, if I gripped firmly with the fingers with no heel pressure, the bow or stick immediately canted forward.  My conclusion… for good control and performance, any bow is going to have to be built/tillered with the grip in mind.  In a recurve, there is usually a pistol grip designed in to compensate for this effect.   If you use a grip that is not compatible with a specific bow’s design, you are not going to get good control and may well have moved the vibration node from its designed point, resulting in greater felt vibration.

Sheesh!  That’s all a handful (no pun intended), but to me, it makes sense.  

I suspect that this discussion is much like the endless debate about aiming techniques… there is no one absolute answer and any answers that there are may differ for given individuals.  Maybe that’s part of the fun.

I will freely admit that there is a general consensus that recurves are easier to shoot and faster.  There may be individual exceptions.  I think you shoot a Hill because it appeals to you and you want to figure it out, or you don’t appreciate the extra challenge, or just prefer the recurve approach, and so, you will not end up being a Hill shooter.

Two comparisons that occurred to me were these:

In fishing rods, there are surf rods, baitcasting rods, spinning rods and fly rods.  Each takes a different approach, and you wouldn’t use a surf rod with a baitcasting technique, or a flyrod with a spinning rod grip.

As far as bow performance goes, again, you’re back to what you want to experience in a bow.   Compare it to rifle shooting… you wouldn’t go from high performance bench rest shooting to muzzle loading and expect identical performance.  (I made that switch years ago.)  

The Hill is what it is meant to be… a very traditional bow with performance appropriate to its design and purpose.  Whether it’s the bow for you will depend on your reactions to it, physical and emotional.  I do know that it take practice to get acquainted with it, but that once you do, it’s a good friend.

Dick in Seattle
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"It ain't how well the bow you shoot shoots, it's how well you shoot the bow you shoot."

Online 58WINTERS

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Re: Hill bow, do they all kick like a mule?
« Reply #17 on: February 11, 2007, 02:42:00 PM »
What Ghost Dog said!!

Online HARL

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Re: Hill bow, do they all kick like a mule?
« Reply #18 on: February 11, 2007, 02:56:00 PM »
When you set up your Hill bow properly it does not kick.I have sold 5 Morrison Shawnees in the last year and a half and added more Hills.I have 1 Shawnee left that may leave soon.I have a Hill bow on order now and am thinking about my next one already.I remember shooting a fellas Great Northern years ago when I first started,it rattled my teeth and I thought they where junk.A couple years later I shot another fellas that was smooth as silk with no shock.Likely was set up properly.
  Best thing to do is try for yourself,play with brace height and shoot a heavy arrow.There is not a better shooting bow out there in my opinion.
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Offline Ol Man

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Re: Hill bow, do they all kick like a mule?
« Reply #19 on: February 11, 2007, 03:26:00 PM »
Admittedly the R/D bows are faster and easier to shoot!  

Dick has done a great job in his explanation.  I just bought a new HH Cheetah and it has a different style riser than my Big 5.  If I grip it the same as my big 5 it shakes me up a bit.  when I grip it slightly different it seems to dissipate.  Now the HH bows are not going to be for everyone - only you can decide.  It's like a compound isn't for me nor is a recurve.  Both feel too much alike for my taste but once again that is me.  I like selfbows and striaght limb longbows - I shoot them far more consistently than R/D bows.  This has been a result of over 10 years experimenting with over 50 bows and some of them have been remarkable bows but I was not as consistent in my shooting results as I though I should be.
Paul...  (8th dwarf)
I do love to shoot a R/D - BBO longbow though or one of my R/D BBH bows.  They shoot fast and easy although they are not as fast as some of the extreme hybrids available today.

We all have different views - likes and dislikes on just about everything - personal preference is the main thing.  If you like the HH bows then you will shoot them.

Doug
Getting older I tend to talk to myself but, at least I know that I am as smart as the one I am talking to.

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