Trying EFOC arrows for the first time.

[Roger9070]

Hey Guys,

I am trying to set up some EFOC arrows for the first time and was wondering how many guys found that their high FOC arrows flew better than their shafts with a lower FOC.  I have read a lot of info and I understand the premise behind it for penetration purposes but was just wondering how much of an increase they noticed with an EFOC arrow?

The other thing I have run into is that having a long draw length and a low poundage longbow, 50lbs@29", the heavier 12 GPI carbon shafts end up in the 800-grain area when trying to get over the twenty percent FOC range.  In order to get an arrow with a FOC in the 25 to 28 percent range, I need an arrow with less than 8 GPI.  Even then I can easily get close to 700 grains just by going to a 300-grain head.

So far I have experimented with 2 shafts both full length the first is the GT Traditional Classic XT and the second the Easton HEXX shafts in 340 spines.  They are on the opposite extremes the GT's being on the heavy side and the HEXX being on the light side.  So far from a strict performance standpoint, the HEXX seems to be flying just a tad better.

Any thoughts on EFOC vs Overall Arrow weight?

Thanks,

[PistolPete]

The whole point is to get high FOC without massively high arrow weight (or at least have most of your chosen arrow weight up front rather than in a high GPI shaft). I use GT Ultralight Entrada 400s, full length 32”, with 2.5” of aluminum arrow footing and 350 grains up front including inserts. I’m shooting 50@32”, and those arrows come out in the mid-600 grains and around 30% FOC. Would likely be underspined except I’m using a thumb release. The footing is great because it allows you to shoot a lighter spine and lighter GPI arrow since footing stiffens the dynamic spine. I tune by adjusting the footing length rather than the shaft length.

Works great for me.

[PistolPete]

Oh, and asking how much additional penetration people have noticed is like asking about which broadheads leave better blood trails. There are so many other factors involved with penetration that no hunter shoots anywhere near enough game to overcome and average out all the other factors. That’s what’s so impressive about Ashby’s work; he shot thousands and thousands of shots into game. Nobody else’s personal experience with dozens, or even hundreds, of kill shots is worth squat with such a relatively small sample size.

[old_goat2]

I'm using victory VAP at about 28-29% and they are very forgiving, but make SURE you reduce your fletching size significantly or you will get some severe fish tailing in a cross wind. Moving the balance point forward increasing the lever length meaning you need less feather to do the same job and the more influence a cross wind will have if you don't reduce it. I'm using 2.5" shield cuts that I wish weren't quite so high backed but they work well.

[Friend]

What are the full specs of a tuned arrow that you were utilizing before experimenting with EFOC?

What model longbow are your shooting?

[Roger9070]

The whole point is to get high FOC without massively high arrow weight (or at least have most of your chosen arrow weight up front rather than in a high GPI shaft). I use GT Ultralight Entrada 400s, full length 32”, with 2.5” of aluminum arrow footing and 350 grains up front including inserts. I’m shooting 50@32”, and those arrows come out in the mid-600 grains and around 30% FOC. Would likely be underspined except I’m using a thumb release. The footing is great because it allows you to shoot a lighter spine and lighter GPI arrow since footing stiffens the dynamic spine. I tune by adjusting the footing length rather than the shaft length.

Works great for me.

Pete

I realize that the point is to get the weight up front and keep the total arrow weight in a reasonable range, that is where the lower GPI comes in, but I have always been a fan of heavier shafts as well.  So my experiment was to compared a high FOC arrow to an overall heavy arrow and just compare arrow flight and tune-ability. 

As to the penetration angle, many have claimed increased penetration and I was wondering how much more penetration that others are seeing with their high FOC arrows.  I realize that this could be highly speculative based on many factors but I was just wondering what others were noticing with their high FOC arrows as well.

Thanks,

[Roger9070]

What are the full specs of a tuned arrow that you were utilizing before experimenting with EFOC?

What model longbow are your shooting?

Friend,

It is a Centaur Longbow 62" 50lbs@29" and I just got the bow so I am looking to come up with an arrow that shoots well and was trying two completely different arrows. 

Thanks,

[Roger9070]

Hi Roger,

I've been increasing my arrows FOC more every season and every time I've experienced better flying arrows.My arrows for the upcoming season will have around 28% FOC and no doubt are my best flying setup to date.
If I shot 3D (I don't)......I truly feel I could use these bareshafts with field points and not handicap my score at all........they fly perfect!

As for finished arrow weight.........choosing a shaft with the lightest GPI is the best way to increase FOC while keeping the finished weight down.However, I find the light GPI shafts to be more fragile than I care for, so sorta went " middle of the road" and settled on heavier GPI shafts..........mine are around 660 grains and I'm shooting around 60#'s, so worked out perfect for me and what I was after.

You'll likely end up trying several shafts and several point weight combo's to find your desired finished weight, but I guarantee once you get them tuned you'll be amazed at how well they shoot and perform.

Good luck!

Mike

Mike thanks for the info and I appreciate your input and you are right if the bareshafts are flying great than that's a sign of a well-tuned combination.  That is what I'm looking for as well a shaft that flies great and penetrates well from my longbow.  While I am not new to traditional equipment this is my first time trying to set up and use an arrow with a high FOC, I might now try an arrow in between the eight and twelve GPI that I have now.

Thanks,

[Orion]

I've been shooting high FOC (23-24%, guess that's called Extreme) arrows for 5-6 years now and can't say as I notice a difference in arrow flight, but then again, I've always been able to tune my arrows to get excellent arrow flight.

As for breaking through the shoulder blade with high FOC arrows, don't count on it.  Maybe with a heavy enough bow, arrow, broadhead and FOC, etc., but hit a deer at the joint or near the joint where the scapula is thickest, and you're not likely to make it through.  At least that's been my experience.

[Friend]

-- Normal FOC - < 12%

-- High FOC - >12 % to 19%

-- Extreme FOC- > 19% to <30%

--Ultra EFOC >30% - EFOC contributes to a 40% to a 60% increase in penetration having most of the arrow design enhancing features

Notes: From personal experience:
No easily visible appreciable gains in penetration until approaching 25% EFOC
Extreme penetration gains in the 28% range

Amazing nonlinear penetration gains when reaching 30% UFOC…target longevity may be significantly compromised

UFOC arrows correct in nearly half the distance as normal FOC arrow designs. Able to bareshaft plane inIn high winds and consistently hit the mark at 25 yards…have shot a complete3D round utilizing an EFOC bareshaft and had a respectable score…know my skill level won’t permit such results with low to midrange EFOC arrow designs...have had full length penetration on a doe from brisket to 6 to 8" arrow breach of inner back thigh with a 52# bow...612 gn arrow...400 gn up front...30% UFOC

Incurred over 40% penetration gains in the 30-31% utilizing UFOC. Arrow designs with EFOC to UFOC penetration gains are restricted to soft tissue. In other words, FOC does not improve bone breaking capability. This ability is primarily influenced by arrow mass weight followed by broadhead design.

Note: All tests were with well-tuned arrows. An untuned arrow detracts from the benefit of any arrow design penetration enhancing factor

[Bladepeek]

I played around with some very high FOC arrows out of my 43# bows. I found them relatively easy to bare shaft tune and for those of you who are getting good flight with high FOC bareshafts, try Ashby's itty bitty fletching - little 2" delta shaped feathers instead of going back to normal fletching. They are super quiet.

[CEW]

Here is a link to a video Ashby did on how to setup a high FOC arrow.

https://binged.it/2T0Xltx

[Bill from NJ]

Rodger,

Here is my setup:

Using a 45# longbow @ 28":

Arrow Total Weight (grains) 551.7

Arrow Specific Weight (GPP) 13

Front of Center (FOC) % 24.8

Arrow Speed (ft/sec) 159.8

Arrow Energy (ft-lbs) 31.2

My actual arrow total weight is not very heavy. About 552 grains.

I also have:
125 grain Zwickey glued to a 100 grain insert.
Both are screwed into a 75 grain brass arrow insert.
My total is 300 grains up front.
Beman 500 arrow cut at 27".
18 grains counting nock and arrow wraps. With three, 5 inch feathers. on the rear.

They fly excellent, great penetration, and the bow is very quiet.

I also live in Camden County. A little North of you, so if you have any questions....

[Roger9070]

-- Normal FOC - < 12%

-- High FOC - >12 % to 19%

-- Extreme FOC- > 19% to <30%

--Ultra EFOC >30% - EFOC contributes to a 40% to a 60% increase in penetration having most of the arrow design enhancing features

Notes: From personal experience:
No easily visible appreciable gains in penetration until approaching 25% EFOC
Extreme penetration gains in the 28% range

Amazing nonlinear penetration gains when reaching 30% UFOC…target longevity may be significantly compromised

UFOC arrows correct in nearly half the distance as normal FOC arrow designs. Able to bareshaft plane inIn high winds and consistently hit the mark at 25 yards…have shot a complete3D round utilizing an EFOC bareshaft and had a respectable score…know my skill level won’t permit such results with low to midrange EFOC arrow designs...have had full length penetration on a doe from brisket to 6 to 8" arrow breach of inner back thigh with a 52# bow...612 gn arrow...400 gn up front...30% UFOC

Incurred over 40% penetration gains in the 30-31% utilizing UFOC. Arrow designs with EFOC to UFOC penetration gains are restricted to soft tissue. In other words, FOC does not improve bone breaking capability. This ability is primarily influenced by arrow mass weight followed by broadhead design.

Note: All tests were with well-tuned arrows. An untuned arrow detracts from the benefit of any arrow design penetration enhancing factor

Friend,

Thank you I appreciate the info and looking forward to doing some of my own research!  I really like the thought of quicker recovery and better arrow flight.

Thanks,

[Roger9070]

I played around with some very high FOC arrows out of my 43# bows. I found them relatively easy to bare shaft tune and for those of you who are getting good flight with high FOC bareshafts, try Ashby's itty bitty fletching - little 2" delta shaped feathers instead of going back to normal fletching. They are super quiet.

Thanks, I have been thinking of reducing the fletch size if I am getting great bare shaft arrow flight!

[Roger9070]

Here is a link to a video Ashby did on how to setup a high FOC arrow.

https://binged.it/2T0Xltx

Thanks much appreciated I will check it out!

[Roger9070]

Rodger,

Here is my setup:

Using a 45# longbow @ 28":

Arrow Total Weight (grains) 551.7

Arrow Specific Weight (GPP) 13

Front of Center (FOC) % 24.8

Arrow Speed (ft/sec) 159.8

Arrow Energy (ft-lbs) 31.2

My actual arrow total weight is not very heavy. About 552 grains.

I also have:
125 grain Zwickey glued to a 100 grain insert.
Both are screwed into a 75 grain brass arrow insert.
My total is 300 grains up front.
Beman 500 arrow cut at 27".
18 grains counting nock and arrow wraps. With three, 5 inch feathers. on the rear.

They fly excellent, great penetration, and the bow is very quiet.

I also live in Camden County. A little North of you, so if you have any questions....

Thanks Bill I appreciate the help!  Where do you shoot at?

[Bill from NJ]

Roger,

South Jersey Shooting Club in Winslow.

Indoor range up to 30 yards.

[Zradix]

I've played around with them...but haven't been able to test on animal penetration.
The penetration in the target was about the same as a similar total weight arrow.

As was mentioned earlier....if you don't reduce your fletch size, your arrows will fly sorta sideways in a stiff cross wind....not really fishtail...just sideways.
I couldn't tell...but I wondered if the rotation speed may have slowed down as well.
They still hit closer to center than a non efoc arrow...but they hit at an angle.

I tried out efoc in order to try to make a more forgiving arrow...by keeping the fletching the same size as normal.
My thought was an arrow with the same fletch as normal with more "leverage" from the efoc would be more forgiving.

I wasn't pursuing efoc for penetration improvement really.

I decided not to shoot efoc mostly from fear of the lack of penetration if I'm hunting in breezey weather with a cross wind....an arrow flying at an angle (sideways) to a target just won't penetrate very well.

I'd rather dope for the wind and have my arrow fly straight.

I haven't tried efoc with small fletch much...the larger fletch helps me see the flight and impact site of my arrow...I like that in a hunting arrow.
I believe that efoc and small(er) fletch is the way to go if efoc arrows are the goal.

[9 Shocks]

I've been wanting to try three 2" feathers on the back of my arrows to see how they fly.  Currently shoot three 5" feathers.  Anyone shoot 2" successfully?