Concern for direction of hunting

[SAM E. STEPHENS]

A good ol debate is always good in my opinion and I’m not mad or upset about anything , as I like to learn...

This is not only about baiting I don’t think..

I said earlier I keep hearing about how it use to be and the old timers. Well they used baiting and the most modern gear they had also. We can name names if needed also many of today’s traditional icons use plenty of technology and bait for that matter...

To call those methods nonsense , I don’t agree.... Or say an animal taken using one of those methods was not really hunted ???

If someone thinks it should only be done the old ways then you need to do more research on the subject cause it hasn’t changed much. And we can can get into specific people and Trad icons if needed and also Native American and aboriginal hunters as well...

I will say again I’m not mad or upset , just more than one way to skin a cat...

,,Sam,,

[OkKeith]

No worries Warchild... I was just trying to lighten the mood on the whole topic and my post was deleted as well.

I was trying, in a tongue in cheek manner, to point out that it is only through modern convenience that we are able to sit around and contemplate how much better the non-technological old days were.

We seem to have a romantically shaded view of the past as being better, and hunters being less influenced by technology and "better" woodsman. Let's remember that it was Fred Bear that strongly promoted the POD as a way to more effectively dispatch game animals. He was also one of the first to incorporate fiberglass into bows and promote the NEW technology of compound bows. Pre-internet there were lots of books and magazine articles written. Taken as a whole, most of the information was as much crap as the digital information is today.

TV, technology and all the other gadgets have nothing to do with a lack of "woodsmanship". I don't feel like I am any less a hunter because I enjoy looking at photos taken by my game cameras. I am no less skillful in the woods because I use a welded together tree stand or a synthetic material pop up blind. I am no less a "woodsman" (whatever that is) because I keep feeders stocked with corn, millet, milo and whatever for all the wildlife to use. If a Gal or a Guy can only manage to get off work one or two weekends a year to hunt, they SHOULD use all of the legal means at their disposal in order to be successful. If a hunter chooses to go a more difficult way... good for them. Legally killing a game animal cleanly with a bow (any type of bow) is what makes someone a bow hunter.

Like I said... my earlier post was just meant to be fun and DID NOT mention anyone in a disrespectful way or have anything disrespectful to the original post or any following posts. We seem to take ourselves way to seriously around here... sometimes anyway.

OkKeith

[GCook]

I agree Sam.

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk

[pavan]

Any kid that gets doing it The Hard Way, and has the stuff to stick to it until he is good enough to hunt on his own, gets to keep all of the stuff that was supplied to get him to that point.  What goes around comes around. 

[LC]

I'll be turning 61 in a few days. I've bowhunted most of my life. The rest I guess I guess I just wasted. Lets just say I've hunted "traditionally"  most of my life. I get where the OP is going! I totally agree. Who can tell me you like where hunting has went in the last 20 years? If you do,  I'm not upset with you but you have no clue how it use to be. I have to say I totally HATE the saying IF IT"S LEGAL IT'S OKAY WITH ME. If they legalized RPG's tomorrow for hunting would you be okay with that? It would not surprise me if DNR's or hunting groups proposed that tomorrow as a means to get more hunters when hunter numbers are deleting.  I get tired of the big tent society as I'm getting wet standing on the edge of the tent. I guess I'm old school as in Aldo Leupold old. He was thinking way ahead of his time. I'll bet he had NO IDEA how far fishing and hunting would have advanced to.

[GCook]

There are definitely some negative aspects of progress, technology and life's faster pace today but as pointed out there are many positives.     
One of my boys (the adopted one) is a young Marine officer.  If he gets a couple of days to come home and wants to go shoot a deer or pig I'm sure not going to deny him some time in a blind with a crossbow to shoot one with at the feeder.  I will make sure we have good grub to grill at camp.   I'm going to check the cameras to make sure we are sitting in as high of a probability spot as possible.  I'll even slap him on the back, give him a high five and a big hug after the bolt blows through it's chest as it runs off.  The adrenaline rush will be just as thrilling as if I shot it with my longbow on a field edge in Missouri or a swamp edge in central New York.  Maybe better.  Then we will text family and friends with the LDPs. 
I'm pretty sure he will carry that memory with him a long time (because he still talks about the last time) and won't care about the trivial disagreements we discuss on here.  I will just look forward to the next time.

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk

[LC]

Quote "wants to go shoot a deer or pig" End quote

Case in point GCook. It's about shooting now days not hunting.  In my lifetime I've taken several people just like you mentioned on fair chase hunts.  Most never KILLED. They talked about a Ruff Grouse walking by at three yards. A squirrel coming within feet of them. A Carolina wren landing on their bow limb.   Laughed about watching squirrels bury nuts for hours that they surely will never ever find and are planting for their grandkids,  Etc. They never regretted not KILLING! They just enjoyed the HUNT! But yes some killed but not as  killing was the end reward!

Congrats to your your Marine son! Don't know how to spell Hu Raugh!

[OkKeith]

LONG POST WARNING!

I first want to say I really do respect everyone's opinion. I enjoy these type of discussions!

Actually... Aldo Leopold knew exactly where hunting (and fishing) had come from and where it was going. He was a part of "the good ole' days" when Bison were nearly hunted into extinction, wolves were ALL shot on sight and the white-tailed deer wasn't just scarce, they were nearly non-existent from hunting pressure and habitat loss.

“In those days we had never heard of passing up the chance to kill a wolf. In a second we were pumping lead into the pack, but with more excitement than accuracy. When our rifles were empty the old wolf was down and a pup was dragging a leg into impassable slide rocks.” Thinking Like a Mountain, A Sand County Almanac.

“For one species to mourn the death of another is a new thing under the sun.” On a Monument to the Pigeon, A Sand County Almanac.

He developed his idea of the "Land Ethic" through a life of discovery and learning. Leopold was a city kid from Iowa who's Father was an Engineer and an Architect but would take him to the country on trips.  Professionally he was a Forester with the USFS charged with managing timber for wood products. It wasn't until the USFS assigned him to New Mexico that he had ever seen real wilderness. He arrived at his philosophy (that is largely misunderstood) through years of contemplation.

Aldo understood that progress and innovation were valuable, even in bow building...

“I have tried to build into this bow the main recent improvements in bow-design, but since some of them are not visible, they will bear mention.  The square cross section and waisted handle are of course visible innovations, but probably less important than the new location of the geographic centre.  In former days this was pub close under the arrow plate, but in this bow it lies as near the centre of the handle as is possible without overworking the lower limb.”  wrote in a letter (on March 26, 1934) to Herbert Stoddard re: a bow AL was building for HS.

Aldo Leopold is always touted as the Father of Wildlife Management and creator of the Modern Land Ethic. He was EVENTUALLY a wise fella, no doubt.

"Simple and easy are not the same thing" (Dean Torges)... but just because it's HARD doesn't make it better. Cameras, GPS maps, all these things are just tools. It's a bit of an exaggeration, but no one would agree that a flat stick is a better tool than a shovel because it's HARDER to dig a hole with it. Need a big hole? No... can't use that backhoe, it's not HARD enough!

If we use the law as the common baseline, anything "beyond" that is really personal preference. I have pretty strong feelings about some things that are legal and don't agree with them but those are MY feelings and how I choose to live my life. Hunting and fishing will develop with society and society will influence hunting and fishing. I was scolded just the other day in the parking lot of the local city park pond for putting a stringer of Bluegills in the cooler (all within the length limit and under the creel limit). I had my flyrod with me and was braced by a pair of young folks (also with flyrods) who took me to task for not being a REAL flyfisherman because I didn't catch and release.

Personal preference, folks... personal preference.

With respect,
OkKeith

[GCook]

How many people hunt without it being an effort to shoot game?  Not me.  Doesn't always work out but that is my intention when I head to the field with a weapon.
Is it only "hunting" if I don't "shoot"?

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk

[McDave]

“I was scolded just the other day in the parking lot of the local city park pond for putting a stringer of Bluegills in the cooler (all within the length limit and under the creel limit). I had my flyrod with me and was braced by a pair of young folks (also with flyrods) who took me to task for not being a REAL flyfisherman because I didn't catch and release.”

Never have understood that reasoning.  I fish to eat, not to torture the fish.

[LC]

 OkKeith not being argumentative but reread his book. Paraphrasing he said fishing was the last sport that wasn't over taken with technology. Imagine him on a bass boat now adays with fish finders that can watch his lure coming through a school of fish or by a single fish displayed on his wide screen monitor showing 180 degrees around his boat ran by GPS he programed before he ever left the dock. He was a forward thinker no doubt but he had no idea  about Ozonics or where technology would take us.

I personally think we've lost what hunting and fishing is about. This forum group is probably the exception to the rule. Taking fish to make a meal, killing a deer to feed the family for several meals have been lost long ago in todays world and that's sad. I am a meat eater!  But the end result is enjoying the outdoors knowing full well that every outing doesn't always have to put meat or fish in the freezer to make it successful. I don't go out thinking I have to SHOOT  or catch anything to be successful. Just being in the great outdoors is success enough. Sad seems like most think now days that's not enough.  Again I agree with OP.

[OkKeith]

Well... GCook, folks have been pondering that and trying to figure that out for a long time.

"One does not hunt in order to kill; on the contrary, one kills in order to have hunted...If one were to present the sportsman with the death of the animal as a gift he would refuse it. What he is after is having to win it, to conquer the surly brute through his own effort and skill with all the extras that this carries with it: the immersion in the countryside, the healthfulness of the exercise, the distraction from his job."
Jose Ortega y Gasset, Meditations on Hunting
Spanish philosopher & politician (1883 - 1955)

My thought has always been that if you think you are hunting, you probably are.

OkKeith

[T Sunstone]

A neighbors grandson that likes to go with me hunting rabbits with my beagle asked if there was an app to show where the rabbits are.    He is 7 years old and was dead serious.

[9 Shocks]

I am 29.  I’ve been shooting trad for 7 years.  I work at a local family owned sporting goods store and have gotten many 17-20 year old kids into trad. There is hope yet.  They get it.  You just gotta show em the way and be a mentor.  If they don’t want to hunt trad so be it.  But if they do then it’s that much sweeter and you can chalk another one up for the good guys.

[OkKeith]

LC-

Read it many, many times. Good old Aldo said that humans are much like fish in that they are ... "ready, nay eager, to seize upon whatever new thing some wind of circumstance shakes down upon the river of time!". He knew what was up with folks. He also talks about how we, like the trout he pursued were fond of shiny things to the detriment of both.

Leopold also knew that a life wholly prudent is boring because after all... "No prudent man is a fisherman." I think he would just look at all the metal flake bass boats and shake his head knowing that its just people being people.

I don't watch much of the mainstream media hunting and fishing content. I have a few I enjoy that are mostly accessed online. Very little of it reflects how I like to hunt or fish. Having been "in the biz" so to speak it's all about the merchandising. Selling stuff is what the original print media (all the way back to the 1800s) and now video content is all about. The shill game is hard to play and transparent. Some tools revolutionize how we hunt (like GPS) and others are fleeting fads.

LC it looks like we have a love of Mr. Leopold's wisdom in common.

OkKeith

[Tooner]

Nels Grumley and Fred Bear parted ways in large part because their views on technology and mass production of bows weren't compatible.


Let that sink in.

[Wudstix]

“I was scolded just the other day in the parking lot of the local city park pond for putting a stringer of Bluegills in the cooler (all within the length limit and under the creel limit). I had my flyrod with me and was braced by a pair of young folks (also with flyrods) who took me to task for not being a REAL flyfisherman because I didn't catch and release.”

Never have understood that reasoning.  I fish to eat, not to torture the fish.

I wonder how that would work with hunting, truly a challenge!!!  ;-)

[GCook]

Nels Grumley and Fred Bear parted ways in large part because their views on technology and mass production of bows weren't compatible.


Let that sink in.

And yet who's bows still sell and kill today? 
We evolve or become obsolete.

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk

[Sam McMichael]

I still stand by my belief that if it is legal, I am okay with it, in most instances. I may not always agree with it, though and may be willing to make efforts to get the law changed. Actually, my personal values are deeply embedded within the old style feeling of "traditional", but I don't try to insist that others always follow suit. We will always have differences in our opinions about certain aspects of hunting, which is good - it keeps us thinking. However, we should all be united in supporting regulations that preserve fair chase, maintain the number of animals, and protect their habitats.

I'll just pick on LC for a moment (in a friendly way). I have not agreed with every single thing he has said, but I strongly believe in much of it. It is good that he, and others, have stated their opinions in such a straightforward manner. It makes one think and re-analyze his own views. Most of the instances in which I have changed my mind regarding the outdoors, particularly hunting, has been through reading statements such as his. Thanks, LC and all others who share their views. By paying attention to all points of view, I feel better able to form a well rounded approach to my archery and bowhunting beliefs. As long as we try to persuade as opposed to "arguing somebody down", threads such as this will always be a very valuable component of Trad Gang. Again, LC, I hope you don't take offense at me referencing you, it just seems that you are solid in your beliefs and will not be thin skinned about any of this.

[Wudstix]

"One does not hunt in order to kill; on the contrary, one kills in order to have hunted...If one were to present the sportsman with the death of the animal as a gift he would refuse it. What he is after is having to win it, to conquer the surly brute through his own effort and skill with all the extras that this carries with it: the immersion in the countryside, the healthfulness of the exercise, the distraction from his job."
Jose Ortega y Gasset, Meditations on Hunting
Spanish philosopher & politician (1883 - 1955)

My thought has always been that if you think you are hunting, you probably are.

OkKeith

There is much wisdom being offered on this thread.  Personally, like many of you here, I started bow hunting before the term "Traditional" was coined.  I do not carve a stick into a bow, cut cane for arrows, and fletch with fresh feathers.  Instead, I use the most Hi-tech wood longbow available for purchase.  Make up arrows from commercially bought shafts, balanced and weighed to almost perfection.  Neither, do I go into the woods without the intention of "harvesting" game.  I don't go for the game watching experience, although that happens frequently.  If I want that backpacking or hiking are my choice.  Also, I learned long ago that I am not smart enough to determine what is right for someone else.  My standards are my own, they can be witnessed by my actions and speech.  It anyone will listen they will hear what I have to say, if not my thoughts will remain my own intellectual property.