Concern for direction of hunting

[Terry Green]

I wasn't being weapons specific.

And in no way did I ever say that the only way everyone should hunt is with longbows and recurves.  And no game department is holding a gun to my head making me use whatever. 

 I'm simply stating, and I'll say the word simply yet again,.... Technology, mechanics and gadgets  are  teaching people not to put the puzzle together..... But to buy it already matted and framed instead.

 I'm very passionate about this.... If not Rob and I would have not spent the time and effort, not to mention the amount of money, in converting this site so that 18 years of history,  And the history brought forward from the past to remain a  accessible for years to come.

"Woodsmanship doesn't matter much"....sad....very sad reading that here.

 I'm gonna bail out now as I don't have anything else left to say.

 

[Kevin Dill]

March 6, 2019: The man who invented the handheld electronic calculator just died.

I remember when a huge majority of people said the calculator was a cheater's way of doing math. They said kids shouldn't own one until they could do longhand math. Schools would not allow them through the doors. People had no idea what was really happening...or about to happen...as computational technology made it to the hands of anyone who wanted it. I'm sure there are a few people here who still do all their math with ink and paper, but how many?

I'm pretty sure there are traditional mathematicians who look at calculators and computers the way I do digital bait stations, laser rangefinders, and drone scouting. It doesn't hurt anyone to master longhand math, just the same as learning the (often slower and harder) ways of more traditional hunting. It isn't necessary in order to be successful at math or at hunting.

It's still called mathematics. It's still called hunting. Neither has died. Both are going the way of our entire planet-full of humans....toward the future and toward technology. It's anyone's right to like it or not like it. You can do it longhand or not. You might be concerned, while the guy next to you is very thrilled about it all. It's nothing more than one's perspective and preference. Meanwhile, we all have one less day to clear our minds and enjoy what we do have: the right to hunt as traditionally as we prefer. Or not.

[Wudstix]

Tooner; very interesting perspective on how the Game Departments manage things, very true.  Also, great ideas about choice.  That is what we try to teach out children, to make good choices based on what is good and true.  The deliberate way is best, for some.  That is fine.  For others that is not efficient or effective.  As mentioned earlier, I am not smart enough to know what is right for everyone else, just what I consider right.   

[Sam McMichael]

Hey, pavan, if the Green New Deal goes through, gas is going to get us in trouble. Beans will need to eliminated from a whole lot of hunting camps. I fear that before long, politics will become an even greater factor in discussions like this. Let's all hope I am wrong! However, I fear that I am not wrong.

 

[Tooner]

"Woodsmanship doesn't matter much"....sad....very sad reading that here.

 I'm gonna bail out now as I don't have anything else left to say.

 

I don't know if that was directed at my post but if it was it's being a little disingenuous.

"Learning woodsmanship skills and killing animals based only on that is a laudable goal for sure.  Unfortunately it doesn't mean much when deer are dying of disease, starvation, and habitat destruction and personal property damage is rampant."



I didn't say that woodsmanship didn't matter, what I said was unfortunately, when it comes to the game departments reaching their management goals and keeping the herd and the habitat healthy, how the deer are taken doesn't matter much.   A dead deer on a spot and stalk hunt with a longbow is no different than a dead deer taken with a compound, from a treestand, over bait.

In other words, there are simply not enough of "US" to get the job done, and if the job doesn't get done, eventually everyone, including the resource, the habitat, and even non-hunters will suffer.

I'm simply stating, and I'll say the word simply yet again,.... Technology, mechanics and gadgets  are  teaching people not to put the puzzle together..... But to buy it already matted and framed instead.

I agree.  I was simply stating that in the big picture, we need all types of hunters to get the job done in terms of management goals.   Some choose to do it our way,  some choose to do it their way, and at the end of the day, we need them all.

Good discussion.

[Terry Green]

Gotcha Tooner 

[Wudstix]

Great dialogue.   

[Aaron Proffitt 2]

Aaron maybe I should rephrase, It seemed we had gotten away from all that, so I guess it is the norm again?

Well, sir, I really wasn't aware that there's been a move back to "interesting" shot placement . So I may be out of the loop some.

[southernarcher]

Aaron I’m guessing I’m outta the loop too, I don’t know anything about “interesting” shot placement. Either way, I’m not a fan of frontal shots etc.

[YosemiteSam]

I wasn't being weapons specific.

 I'm simply stating, and I'll say the word simply yet again,.... Technology, mechanics and gadgets  are  teaching people not to put the puzzle together..... But to buy it already matted and framed instead.

 I'm very passionate about this.... If not Rob and I would have not spent the time and effort, not to mention the amount of money, in converting this site so that 18 years of history,  And the history brought forward from the past to remain a  accessible for years to come.

"Woodsmanship doesn't matter much"....sad....very sad reading that here.

 I'm gonna bail out now as I don't have anything else left to say.

 

Terry Green -- I'm 40.  I imagine that puts me among the younger folks on this board.  I picked up a stick bow for the first time at about age 16 or 17.  There was no internet back then.  No YouTube.  No message boards.  I sold that bow in my early 20s after getting frustrated with things like target panic, though I wouldn't have known to call it that back then.  There were only 2 archery shops in the Sacramento area where I grew up and only 1 that did anything traditional.  I wanted to learn woodsmanship but my friends didn't know much and my step-dad, who introduced me to hunting, did most all of his hunting from the seat of his pickup.  There was no opportunity to connect with people outside my social group who knew much at all about how to see game trails, what seasonal changes meant to animals, etc.  So although there may be some risk of a lost tradition, I see these changes happening over many decades.  In the 80s and 90s, I think hunting had a worse future outlook than it does today.  Now, guys like me can take it up again with the wealth of knowledge and experience that guys like you have provided.  For that, I'm extremely grateful and hopeful.  Yes, I'm a bit of a crackpot on some things -- sorry.  But I'm here.  And there are a lot of folks younger than me who are here too.  We want to learn all we can & pass it on to the next generation (my oldest just passed his hunters' safety class a couple weeks ago & will be eager for his first turkey this year).  We need your help to do that and appreciate the work a lot of you have put in to make forums like these available to people like me.  I hope that can offer you a little bit of hope.

[Aaron Proffitt 2]

Aaron I’m guessing I’m outta the loop too, I don’t know anything about “interesting” shot placement. Either way, I’m not a fan of frontal shots etc.

By "interesting" I was just saying a shot that we'd most likely agree wasn't optimum .

[Todd Cook]

This has been a really good discussion.

Things are changing, no doubt about it. I grew up in a very rural environment and have always been at home in the woods. I was fortunate to have people who taught me things about nature and hunting. I've always liked the old ways of doing things, for a lot of different reasons.

I'm not very judgemental anymore about how people "should " do things. I like a longbow and wood arrows, but not everybody does.

I realized a few years back that many people are interested in this traditional/primative lifestyle, but many of them don't know where to start. We folks that have been around a while need to be mentors to these folks. I wrote an article lately for our Traditional Bowhunters of Georgia newsletter about how I scout and set up for southern whitetails. Feed trees and crossings and how to get closer shots. And not because I think I'm some great hunter, but because I've realized that lots of folks need some help.

Get involved with your local club. Volunteer. Help out a new hunter. Pass it on.

[McDave]

I didn't say that woodsmanship didn't matter, what I said was unfortunately, when it comes to the game departments reaching their management goals and keeping the herd and the habitat healthy, how the deer are taken doesn't matter much.   A dead deer on a spot and stalk hunt with a longbow is no different than a dead deer taken with a compound, from a treestand, over bait.

In other words, there are simply not enough of "US" to get the job done, and if the job doesn't get done, eventually everyone, including the resource, the habitat, and even non-hunters will suffer.

I'm simply stating, and I'll say the word simply yet again,.... Technology, mechanics and gadgets  are  teaching people not to put the puzzle together..... But to buy it already matted and framed instead.

I agree.  I was simply stating that in the big picture, we need all types of hunters to get the job done in terms of management goals.   Some choose to do it our way,  some choose to do it their way, and at the end of the day, we need them all.

In the big picture, game management results in game being treated more like a crop or a farmed animal than wild game.  This is good for hunters who get more game, and good for game managers who get more money for their programs, but we have to accept the bad with the good.  The bad includes overpopulation when the game management programs are too successful, and encouragement of efficient methods of harvesting animals at the expense of passing along traditional wilderness skills.  Not that anyone in game management would actively discourage anyone from learning traditional wilderness skills, but they really aren't a part of the program they're trying to promote.

[Terry Green]

Yosemite....thanks for the reply, means a lot. And I hope you continue to carry the torch. 

[GCook]

I didn't just take the anti baiting message out of the OP.  There were also comments about a ladder stand, people who don't feel they can get broadheads sharp enough and replaceable blade knives.
I use a replaceable blade knife.  I also use carpet blades in a utility knife to help skin pigs.  I have knives I keep sharp and use them as well but when skinning 2, 3 or 4 pigs for clients or even with group of friends it's much quicker to change blades and keep going.  Especially after an evening hunt or in warmer weather when meat needs to be in the cooler asap.  Now, I am cheap so I save and resharpen those blades later at the house, but for me using them is a choice of efficiency and intellect.  As far as broadheads I applaud those who know their limitations.  I would lay odds as many deer are wounded and lost due to dull heads as bad shots.  I've seen it with compound and trad shooters alike.  For some it may be laziness but some honestly struggle to master the technique.  Not everyone can do everything.   
Which leads me to single string, bare bow shooting.   I waited til after retirement to take it back up because I knew working 60 hours a week, on call 24/7/365 for 30 years and family commitments to boot I didn't have the time to practice every day.  Many times I was too physically exhausted to even shoot a bow with let off more than once or twice a week.
Not everyone has the time or desire to fight through it and get competent to hunt with a "trad" bow.  As a matter of fact 2 slob trad hunters on my first deer lease wounded more deer in two seasons than I have in my bowhunting career.  They quickly taught me the kind of trad shooter I didn't want be.
We shouldn't assume something is bad because it is not the way we always did it.  But yeah, baiting is easier in many ways.  Then again I've killed a few deer on picked corn field edges and alfalfa field edges in New York too.

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[Cyclic-Rivers]

Not to derail but if the primary outcome for the state is to reduce deer numbers regardless of means, why not make it legal to shoot them with spotlights and after dark?

I also probably am in the minority, but don't you think lowering deer numbers was the goal, it would be more successful if people were better hunters?

I also enjoy Aldo Leopold's writings but he speaks out against people killing for sport. Where does that leave all the hunters killing and donating the meat? Not that I'm against it but deer numbers are far different from where they were. On the flip side, I think hunters, especially new hunters eventually figure out gadgets don't necessarily work however they are stuck in a mindset to keep buying them. Eventually, because they don't kill a 200 class buck every year, they give up. 

I know in some areas the DNR claims deer numbers are too high but a lot of hunters don't see it so they let deer walk. Where I am I passed up around 15 gear last year and saw 40 or 50. But it wasn't in my to distant past that we were lucky to see one or two deer a year. Hunters take conservation in their own hands

[GCook]

Not to derail but if the primary outcome for the state is to reduce deer numbers regardless of means, why not make it legal to shoot them with spotlights and after dark?

I also probably am in the minority, but don't you think lowering deer numbers was the goal, it would be more successful if people were better hunters?

I also enjoy Aldo Leopold's writings but he speaks out against people killing for sport. Where does that leave all the hunters killing and donating the meat? Not that I'm against it but deer numbers are far different from where they were. On the flip side, I think hunters, especially new hunters eventually figure out gadgets don't necessarily work however they are stuck in a mindset to keep buying them. Eventually, because they don't kill a 200 class buck every year, they give up. 

I know in some areas the DNR claims deer numbers are too high but a lot of hunters don't see it so they let deer walk. Where I am I passed up around 15 gear last year and saw 40 or 50. But it wasn't in my to distant past that we were lucky to see one or two deer a year. Hunters take conservation in their own hands

Herd control sure isn't achieved by traditional archery hunters.  Rifle hunting has the greatest impact.
Night hunting is effective but the danger to cattle and other wildlife is too great. 
I don't care for hunters who don't eat their deer but at least someone is eating it.  We have one of those guys on my lease.
I donate meat as well but my family eats 3 to 4 deer and a couple of pigs a year.   Texas deer aren't as large as their northern cousins.  I usually fill all five of my tags and a couple of MLD tags so I'm a sport hunter I guess.   I can live with that.
I'd love to kill a 150.  I look for him every season.  Haven't seen him yet.  But if I do I hope he's under 15 yards and I have my Primaltech in my hands.

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[Terry Green]

For what its worth....all the deer I killed in TX got donated through a program for the needy.  No need for me to hassle with dragging meat around in terminal and putting up with airport nazis.

My freezer was usually already full well before I'd go to TX in January.....so someone else needed it more than me.

[Tooner]

In the big picture, game management results in game being treated more like a crop or a farmed animal than wild game.  This is good for hunters who get more game, and good for game managers who get more money for their programs, but we have to accept the bad with the good.  The bad includes overpopulation when the game management programs are too successful, and encouragement of efficient methods of harvesting animals at the expense of passing along traditional wilderness skills.  Not that anyone in game management would actively discourage anyone from learning traditional wilderness skills, but they really aren't a part of the program they're trying to promote.

I would agree with everything except for the underlined statement.   

If game management is successful, there wouldn't be overpopulation.   That's the problem.  In most areas hunters don't (won't) kill enough deer, especially does.  That's why seasons, and methods keep expanding.

Whether we want to admit it or not, if game managers relied on traditional bow hunters to reach their management goals, the herd and the habitat in most areas would be in a world of hurt.   

[Cyclic-Rivers]

I should clarify, I don't have an issue with deer being donated for the hungry, just wanted to point out that forward thinkers had great ideas but things have significantly changed since their writing therefore some of their ideas may be out of place or changed had they been here today.

To bring Aldo back into the picture, he didn't think sport hunting was good per say but also points out over browsing due to unhealthy population balance is also not good.

Also I don't want to derail too much but have one more question i would like some other thoughts on.  If rifle hunters are most effective at reducing herd numbers, why muck up the archery seasons with other equipment and special seasons?   

It's been my observation that the cross bow guys I know set down rifles to be able to hunt the peak rut and quit when freezers are full. I am sure this doesn't account for everyone but in Wisconsin bow and crossbow especially have increased kills and rifle kills have plateaued and in many areas declined.