OL Tuning Question

[vermonster13]

I've talked with OL about this a bunch.

You are aiming for dead-center with the bareshafts and hitting there, correct? I assume you are aiming dead-center with the fletched ones and hitting left with them. The fletching is stiffening up the arrows.

Just try 25-50 grains more tip weight on the fletched and see where they group.

[BobW]

VT13 - you got it correct.  Bare shafts are hitting in the bull.

Thanks for the starting point.  If it stops raining today (Friday), I might get a chance at lunch.  I was unsure as to what "more weight" meant when OL states little will be noticed with a 40gr difference.  I have some 175 points to try next.


BobW

[JC]

Bob, David has it right on the money, imho.

Although the guy is a brilliant mind, I don't necessarily agree with OL on the 40gr change...I have had bow/arrow combos that you could easily see a change with as little as 10gr. Just my experience, ymmv.

[JSimon]

I experienced the exact same thing this past week. This was my first time tuning arrows, so take my post with a grain of salt. Even though OL's diagrams show the fletched shafts in the center of the target, I don't think OL says anything about hitting a bulls eye. The main thing is to look at where your bare shafts and fletched shafts are grouping. Since your fletched shafts are grouping left I think it means your shafts are just a hair weak. I think lowering the point weight will help. I've also heard that adjusting point weight on carbons doesn't have as much of an effect as adjusting shaft length, so you might have to lower the point weight more than you think.

I just tuned some 250's w/ 225 grain point out of a 50 lb.@ 28" bow. I pull just over 30", so my draw weight is similar to yours. My bare shafts were flying awesome and consistently hitting the bull out past 20 yards, but my fletched shafts were hitting about 6" left (I'm right handed). In my case, I cut a 1/4" off the shaft to stiffen them a bit and it brought the fletched shaft and bare shaft together and they both hit right where I aim. I was also confused, at first, because my bare shafts were flying so good, but my results were confirmed with broadheads hitting great out to 25 yards (which is as far as I can shoot in my back yard).

I guess the bottom line is you want your fletched shafts to hit where your looking so I stiffened them up a bit which moved them to the right, and on the bulls eye.

[JSimon]

Another reason why I think your shafts are too weak is because your shafts are full length 250's with 250 grain point out of 56-59 lb. bows at 32" draw. It just seems like those arrows would be weak with those specs. It seems like adding point weight would make it worse, but I'm curious to find out what ends up working. Keep us posted.

[vermonster13]

Thing is the bare shafts are shooting perfect as far as right to left goes. If they were hitting right of center then they would be weak. Results are based on where the arrows hit. If he went out and shot just the fletched shafts and they were hitting left guys would be saying you need to weaken the spine(which he does need to do IMO). Base the tuning to the final results, the bare shaft gives you a guide on final tuning. When the shafts start out hitting center then things are real close and any additions such as fletch and wraps tend to stiffen some and the longer the shaft the more effect additions tend to have.

[R H Clark]

Vermonster is correct based on the assumption that the bareshafts are shooting perfect.

BobW
How far are you shooting? I find it helpful sometimes to back up as far as 30 yards and shoot bareshafts.Just watch the flight.For a right hand shooter, bareshafts that plane to the right of target are weak.Bareshafts that plane to the left are stiff.That is assuming you aren't getting any riser strike deflection from a too stiff shaft or too low nock,which can give you a false reading.It is ok to be just a little weak as the weight of feathers will stiffen the shaft just a little.

Just remember if you shoot bareshafts that far to shoot several and take the average.Any variation in form or release makes a big difference with bareshafts.

[JSimon]

Yeah, I have very little experience and I'm just confused about the aiming thing and how the diagrams are drawn. So you could basically tune with only bare shafts. The bare shafts should hit slightly right of the bulls eye instead of dead on for everything to work out, and making them weaker should do that, correct?

I didn't know that weakening fletched shafts will move them to the right for a right hander. Good to know. I just assumed that you had to stiffen them up per OL's site with the fletched shafts to the left of bare shafts. That suddenly makes OL's site very confusing. Now I'm worried that I should have left my arrows longer, but I guess they seem to be working pretty good for my lousy form. I doubt I can shoot good enough to notice very small changes.

I know all bows are different and every shooter is different, but doesn't it seem like his arrows would be quite weak just based on all of his specs (especially 33" CX 250 arrows with 250 grains up front and over 55lb bow)? I appreciate the feedback.

[HATCHCHASER]

The way Adcock explaines it is going on the relation of bare shafts to fletched shafts, not bare shafts to a spot.  " a well tuned arrow will fly where it is pointed".
Now what I wander is if bare shafts right of fletched shafts means weak.  And adding fletching stiffens the arrow.  Then fletched shafts are gonna always fly to the left of bare shafts all things else being equal.  Same length, tip weight etc.  Try one way if it doesn't get better try the other way.

[vermonster13]

If you had a perfect release and the arrows were right, that would be the case Wally. Most of folks don't shoot well enough to see the difference(we also tend to correct a little when we shoot when the arrows are that close). That is why OL says the bare-shafts should be a little weak, which means to the right of bullseye.

[HATCHCHASER]

It makes more sense to me that the bare shafts should hit just a little to the right of the bullseye than in relation to the fletched shafts.  Then when you fletch em they are in the bullseye.  That being the case, point weight added will fix this gentelman's problem.  Good post this sure has helped me out.  I need all the help I can get!

[R H Clark]

JSimon
Don't get too warried about very fine bareshaft tuning.Basically if you can hit your target from 10-15 yards with a bareshaft you are good to go.All this bareshaft tuning came about because of carbon arrows.Carbons don't come in a lot of different spines like aluminum.They have to be tuned by changing length and point weight within a spine range.Some of us like to be EXACT even to the point of confusion sometimes.

I tell guys all the time that you can't tune any better than you can shoot.That is not to put anyone down but to help folks.I tell folks to bareshaft only as far as you can shoot a fletched group as small as your palm.

If a new guy that doesn't have his form or release down tries to bareshaft farther, it is just an exercise in futility.Any variation in release or form will cause a bareshaft to go right,left ,up or down.

[vermonster13]

Good post Randy and dead on. You can spend way to much time on trying to achieve a perfection that your form just isn't up to yet. Once you can get the fletched arrows into the bull and the flight is good, spend time on shooting. As you develop your skills, you can become more concerned with the smaller details.

Now if you plan on shooting field archery, well then you need to be a lot closer to perfection.

[WESTBROOK]

Dave, now I got it. If you add weight to both, the fletched should move to the bullseye and the bare to the right where they belong.

Dang I got a hard head!!

Eric

[rockz]

You guys are alot more analytical than I am.

I would just try a lighter head and if that didn't work I would try a heavier head.

I figure it is alot quicker to screw on a head and shoot a couple of arrows than to drive myself crazy thinking about it.

Once I found out what worked I fiqure I can determine the reason why. LOL

[Diamond Paul]

No matter what O.L.'s site says, bare shafts that are weak will not fly well enough to group in the bull.  The arrows have to be spined just perfectly without feathers, and adding the feathers stiffened them too much.  If they were weak unfletched, they would not shoot that well now.  JMHO.

[vermonster13]

You're a lefty Eric so I just figured you was thinking opposite is all.

[John Havard]

David has it figured out.  

One observation I'll add is that LONG arrow shafts magnify the need to match spine with the bow.  All of my arrow shafts are 31" to 31.25" to BOP and I like to shoot high FOC.  That really limits me to shafts with an extremely stiff spine.  Bare shaft tuning with very long arrow shafts is more challenging than with shorter arrow shafts.

Just a little change in point weight with a longer fulcrum makes a bigger difference than the same point weight change with a shorter fulcrum.  Another way of saying that is a 25 grain point weight change will have "X" amount of impact on bare shaft arrow grouping with a 28"-long shaft.  With a 31" or 32" shaft the same 25 grain point weight change will have 1.5X or 2.0X impact on bare shaft arrow group center.

Long draw lengths offer the luxury of greater amounts of stored energy per pound of draw but come with a few penalties also.

[HATCHCHASER]

This makes more sense to me than ever.  I am closer with my tuning than I thought.  Thanks for bringing up the eye opening points guys.

[vermonster13]

So Bob let us know what worked.