Where is this headed?

[huntryx]

I don't know if this belongs in the PowWow, will leave it to the moderators to decide.

I have been listening to some podcasts lately, and two of them stood in stark contrast, and were a bit troubling. The first was on I believe TradQuest, a great, rare interview with Dr. Don Thomas, one of the most articulate members of our cohort. Among other things he expressed his pleasure with all the new bowhunters joining our ranks. A good sign for the future of traditional archery, and I heartily agree. At ETAR last summer, the numbers of young and younger archers were truly impressive, as was their evident enthusiasm. They have new heroes, too, most of whom I have never heard of but maybe will as time passes.

Now for the troubling part. I downloaded and started to listen to a new podcaster (young fellow in his early 20s I think), his podcast is called "Bowhunting Soul". Only 4 episodes so far, but the latest featured this young man, proudly stating that he was drinking beer at the time of the recording and this apparently gave him the courage to talk about something "that needs to be talked about". He went off on a rant about older traditional bowhunters  ("curmudgeons" he called them "from the 80s") who have said that the newer, more technical approach to shooting the longbow or recurve is not really "traditional". He put it this way, and I quote "they act like the arrows get there with Fred Bear's breath and unicorn piss". REALLY? He liked the idea of that so much he repeated it a few times.

I struggled to remember my own lack of wisdom, patience and thoughtfulness at that age...... were it not for those of us who have persisted with traditional equipment for so many years, supported traditional organizations and vendors, fought for extended seasons, guarded the history which formed us and continues to INform us, where would we be, where would the newcomers be?

I would advocate for respect  for our history and elders, and also for differences of opinion without nasty commentary. Or maybe we should start a new group, "Hybrid Archery". In this new group any new technical advantage would be applauded, no history valued, taught or learned and......oh, we already went though that didn't we, a time or two?

My two cents: "Dance with the one that brung ya". 

[Rob DiStefano]

this is the "information age" and with that comes a responsibility that clearly far too many are failing at, and thus we have "bowhunting soul" characters acting as the voice of everyone.

such diatribe is a sign of our times, both as trad bowhunters and the direction too many want this country to end up.  there is a solid link between our actions as Americans and what will be the future of tradtional bowhunting, or any hunting for that matter.   

we should maintain our composure and do our best to present traditional bowhunting in as positive a manner as possible.  that and avoiding the "bowhunting souls" of the media.

[Terry Green]

You named Don Thomas and the producer of the Podcast he was on...

 Is there some reason you didn't name the other guy's name or the name of the Podcast?.... Please provide.

[Rob DiStefano]

the podcast author/orator is Emrah Oruc, 44yo, minnesota.

his latest podcast is titled "beware the trad police" is just a rant over things he imagines, doesn't understand real trad bowhunters, nor anything about the origins of "modern archery".  someone must have yanked his chain for the attitude he portrays, but his lack of knowledge about trad archery/bowhunting is legion. 

[Terry Green]

Thanks Rob, I still would like to know the young man's name..... I don't want either to end up here that's for sure.

[Rob DiStefano]

look above your post, i entered his name - Emrah Oruc.  he's on facebook, instagram, twitter, yadda yadda yadda.

i posted this to his facebook page ...

having been involved in all phases and types of archery since the early 1950's, from longbow hunting to olympic recurve to the first allen and pse compounds that were offered in the mid 60's, your last podcast about "beware the trad police" is just chock full of nonsense. unfortunately, you don't fully understand the sport and as a result you do trad archery and bowhunting in general nothing but a disservice, particularly to the newbies or those coming over from the wheelbow side. if you wish to really learn about traditional bowhunting and support, and promote it's future, join www.TradGang.com and get an education.

i'm sure that'll piss him off, but that's both his fault and problem.

[mnolletti]

TradQuest and the other awesome podcasts out there are centered on unity and making bowhunting better.

The Push, and other guys now are doing great things centered around aiming methods, psychotriggers, this and that, but I know you would never find them disrespectful in their presentation of new ways of thinking about traditional archery. In fact the opposite, as they have had Barry Wensel and other so-called "old timers" on their podcast, right along with the guys doing exceptional things in the newer generation and in the target archery world.

[GCook]

For the record I've only watched one (partial) podcast and that was the push. 
Also I not advocate having to be intoxicated to speak my mind.  As a matter of fact I prefer to be in control of my brain at those points and anger or frustration can taint you words and intent as based as alcohol. 
I also believe in following the rules and try to do that even if I dont agree with them.
But in all honesty the "trad police" is a real downer.  The whole attitude and attacks from too many trad shooters is negatively impacting new shooters.
I've seen it on other forums and this one as well.
Demeaning and belittling comments are made to people all the time on here who disagree with the old timers.  If one tries to explain or defend their position they are either brow beaten into submission, have their posts deleted and get a chastising or they get banned.  I know some well capable single string shooters who gave up on this sight because of the attitude of a very few here.  Of course those my way or the highway folks on on other sights as well but the vast majority of them aren't the owners and dont have the power to ban someone because their point of view doesn't perfectly align.
Most guys here are welcoming, helpful and knowledgeable however and over the years I've learned the wheat and the chaff grow together and you have to learn to glean the good from the not so good.
If you can let things go and not look to be offended most times you wont be.
I'm pretty sure this post will get deleted and next time I go to log in it wont work but I just thought maybe I could speak my mind soberly without offending anyone too much.
Keep shooting and have a great day folks. 

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[GCook]

By the way I'll be 55 next month so definitely not a millennial.

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[Rob DiStefano]

GCook - most things in life are subjective and everyone has an opinion on everything.  getting opinions and comments out to everyone in text has its challenges and limitations.  opinions are not mandates.  there is NO doubt there are folks who will define and defend their version of trad archery/bowhunting differently than other folks.  as long as it's done in a respectful fashion, that's a good thing.  however, crossing the line of civility is a reason for correction.  we (admins and mods) can never see all posts, let alone all threads, and so we ask the members to report any threads or posts they might feel is detrimental.  if mr "bowhunting soul" posted his crap here on trad gang, it would be gone.  and perhaps him, too.  would that be considered "trad police"? geez.     

[Pine]

I have a saying that I use but it's hard to follow, ( If you see someone doing something that bothers you to watch; then don't watch. )
Our hobby is like many other hobbies, there are many different degrees of just how deep you want to go.
If you want to shoot a bow with a metal riser with carbon core limbs with the latest string material pushing a carbon arrow tipped with a solid one piece machined arrow head, that's fine.
Or maybe you shoot only a self bow strung with natural fibers you have harvested yourself, self nocked arrows with tied on fletching tipped with a flint arrowhead, that's great too.
But shair what you do with fellow archers your passion but don't tell them they are doing it wrong.
Now if someone is struggling and asking questions, help them along and point out that there's many diffrent ways to enjoy traditional archery.
Shoot often and have fun......
Graps

[GCook]

No Rob I agree with you that blatant disrespect is not acceptable.  But like for myself, I have and will have kills with my longbows and recurves using broadheads that many in this community have disparaged myself and others for using and mentioning so those kills dont get shared here or on TBH because there are many traditional archers who see that as wrong so I just show the pics to my friends and we laugh about the trad police. 
Like some will dispar a single string shooter who uses a mechanical release or a fixed sight on the bow.  It's all relative to what makes it possible for you to be successful in and enjoy the experience.  But just because it is different from me doesn't make me more or less trad than you.

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[styksnstryngs]

Eh, I don't think one not-so-shining example points towards an overall trend in the next generation of archers. There seemed to be plenty of arguing and dissenting done for decades back. Of course, I'm not a baby boomer or a milennial, so I might not have a horse in the race.

[Rob DiStefano]

gary, and anyone else who cares to be part of this thread, this isn't about personal nuances of "trad archery/bowhunting", you do whatever you think is appropriate and call it whatever ya like.  i can only tell ya what trad gang considers "traditional bowhunting" and if you disagree, that's yer business and surely not ours.  just reread your trad gang user agreement ...

TradGang.com is 100% totally devoted to traditional bowhunting. The 3 goals of Tradgang.com are as follows ...

1. To offer a free public access website for those that love the sport of hunting with traditional archery equipment - i.e., selfbows, longbows, and recurves.

2. To create a friendly atmosphere to all. Dedicated to the discussion of all topics that relate to traditional bowhunting.

3. To offer methods of sharing contact information and site links for traditional archery manufacturers, vendors, services and organizations - good folks that have their hearts and souls poured into the sport.

if you feel there is a thread or post that's not in the spirit of traditional bowhunting, or violates our rules, let any admin know so that we can review and possibly take action. 

the bottom line as i see it is that we can be so good at shooting ourselves in the foot and harm our sport rather than bolster it.  case in point is mr. oruc's podcast.

[YosemiteSam]

Younger folks are often willing to try new things.  I feel that is good because tinkering allows for new discoveries that lead to improvements.  But, on average, most new ideas & technologies fail.  But with enough young, talented tinkerers hammering away at all sorts of crazy ideas, there will emerge a couple good ones that some of us can benefit from.

Older folks have often already hammered out some of this nonsense and have settled on what works best for them.  Young folks can save themselves a lot of effort by just following the advice of the older guys every now and then.  Older guys, thankfully, can usually disregard whatever the younger guys are saying because they already have something that works. 

Talk is cheap.  Young guys with a beer are the very definition of loud-mouthed behavior that most older guys quit doing in their 30s.  For some people, it takes longer to realize that wisdom.

Of course, if they're out trying to get noticed, then they can sometimes have an incentive to piss people off (shock-jocks, talk show hosts, popular artists, etc.).  In that case, the cruelest thing you can do to them is to simply dismiss them & carry about your day.

[Trenton G.]

I hate the term 'trad police', and I hate the way that it seems to cast a big, negative shadow on all of those who shoot recurves and longbows. Last week at the campus shooting range I was shooting and another guy came up and started talking to me. At one point he made the comment about how I probably didn't think much of him as a bowhunter since he used a compound. That's a load of bull and I pretty much told him that. Seems that a trad guy back at his local range had really tore into him at one point for shooting a compound and that had left a pretty bad impression of trad shooters as a whole. I consider people like him to be just as much a bowhunter or an archer as someone who chooses to shoot a longbow instinctively, a barebow while string-walking, or a compound with all the bells and whistles. Sure, we may not use the same equipment, but we're all out there for the same reasons. I see nothing good coming from archers bashing other archers over how or what they choose to shoot.

Just seeing the division between compound shooters and trad shooters is worrying enough. If we start to have a division within the trad shooters, then that will only make things worse.

[GCook]

I agree Trenton.

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[Terry Green]

Gotta love it....

Guy pods bashing old timers...and Tradgang takes a beating.   

I'm sure this has to do with the latest post about irresponsible practices and referring to compound bows. 

 I'm not sure that you new people realize... For 16 years we haven't allowed compound talk..... No we do not bash compounds..... We just dont allow them or guns, spears,  crossbows, throwing knives, etc....

 So you new people don't go sticking that dagger in our back 

You don't know a fifth of the trash we pull or have to put up with.

[Steve Clandinin]

I wholeheartedly agree with what’s been said above.A lot of us old timers don’t post maybe as much as we should ,and I for one am guilty of that. This is the only sight I will now post on because of lack of respect. I think many of us were getting ticked off by giving our wisdom and knowledge and getting flamed for it.In this day of instant everything, it’s very refreshing to take something so basic as a traditional bow and perfect it ,no one ever said it was easy,it never has been, the same as a good golfer ,tennis player or fighter. I shoot a lot with people that shoot wheel bows and we all have a great time. Disrespect I don’t tolerate at all, personally or for the sport I love.

[ron w]

   Curmudgeon ‘s from the 80’s ...... are you kidding me, in 1987 I had been bowhunting with recurve for 20 years. I guess I know now why I don’t listen to podcasts.