CHEATING at Archery Events

[T. W. Harris]

WELL, let's get this started.

Is there really cheating at Archery Events?   I hear that some cheat, I really don't know.

Could it be that some that some might be a little envious of those that might just practice really hard and put the time it takes to be good at what they love to do.

At the Howard Hill Classic, I've heard grumblings of people that might be cheating. 

I have also heard about other events where cheating may have happened as well.

Grumble all you want, but until someone has the guts to stand toe to toe with proof or witnesses about someone cheating, nothing can be done.

Some say two score card keepers is the solution, I'm not sure. If someone wants to cheat, they will find a way.

These events should be fun for everyone, serious competitors and those that just like to shoot against their friends.

Many people travel great distances to shoot for fun as well as competitively, and rumors of cheating never helps any event.

This is what I am proposing to do at the Howard Hill Classic and this may not be the solution either.  The only true solution would to have a monitor for each group, that will never happen.

First, a three group minimum as always.  If, there are only two that want to go out, THEIR SCORE WILL NOT COUNT IN THE COMPETITION, PERIOD!!

Second,  the group score keeper is responsible and must sign the back of everyone's score card, along with the names of two other participants from their group. If this criteria is not met, THESE SCORE CARDS WILL NOT BE COUNTED!!

In the future at the Howard Hill Classic, if someone accuses somebody of cheating, they better be ready to call the cheater out in front of me, OR, just keep quiet.

Terry Harris

[Pat B]

If you have to cheat to win you still haven't won.

[Bisch]

I’ve been around a lot of 3D for a long time. In all that time, I’ve only seen one person caught red handed, and that person still denies it to this day!!! It’s always happened, and I suppose it always will. There are a few folks in any competitive crowd who feel that winning is more important than anything, and they will go to extremes to get their prize. Most of these folks will call a shot “in” when 99.9% of us would call it “out”! I don’t let them get under my skin, as my attitude is that they will get what’s coming to them at some point. But, if I catch someone doing that, and I think it is out, you bet I will get others in the groups opinion, and if the others agree, we are going to see a range/course official before that arrow ever gets pulled. Anytime there is competition, and no matter the prize, there will eventually be someone who tries to subvert the system to their advantage.

Bisch

[ron w]

  I have seen it in action even when no trophy or prize was given. There are some who feel the need to win at all costs....sad !! The only reason I turn my score card in is the organization knows I’m off the course.

[McDave]

Around here, two score cards are the norm.  More, I think, to catch each other’s errors than to prevent cheating.  I personally would not be in favor of requiring signatures on score cards, at least not at the level of events I attend.  Maybe at a championship level where more is at stake it would make sense. 

I have seen people disqualified for breaking tournament rules, like string walking.  I have to assume that if someone knows enough about archery to string walk, they probably also know enough to read the rules, so I doubt they are string walking by “accident.”  They probably think the rule about string walking is BS and just choose to ignore it until they are caught.  I happen to agree with them about the BS part, but I also feel that it is important to follow whatever the rules of the tournament may be, so I don’t feel sorry for them when they get DQ’d for breaking one of them.

Our groups always follow the rule that one person calls out the scores, and another person pulls the arrows after each score is recorded.  With only one person calling out scores and everyone else watching, it is unlikely that he will favor anyone over anyone else.  There are no instant replays or videos, so whatever the caller says is law, like it or not.  I really don’t like the idea of some judge outside of the group being called over to second guess whether an arrow broke a line on the target or not, as I think it kind of ruins the spirit of the event (unless it is a championship event) and slows down the movement of groups from target to target.

[bucknut]

I go for fun and don’t keep score. There are a$$holes in every crowd. Learned that a long time ago in competition coon hunting. They ruined that for me.  No sense in ruining a good time. Leave the cards in your pocket. 

[T. W. Harris]

Good responses folks, NOW MY TAKE on some of them.
At the HH Classic, I do take 1st round score cards and on Saturday evening I have a Championship Shoot Down.

Ya might cheat to get there or cheat for the entire event, but you can't cheat in front of the crowd watching.

As far as two score keeping, such as the IBO or any other archery organization. That's not infallible either.

Let's say that a couple of people are sponsored by the same Bowyer or company and they decide to be the score keepers while they are shooting in the same group. Are you telling me this might not happen, YOU MIGHT BE SURPRISED.

McDave, the signature thing may not be the best, but if there is any question, I at least will know who I can go to to get their take.

I do have skin in the game, I also want everyone to have a great time. Like I said earlier, SPEAK UP WITH PROOF OR SHUT UP.


Terry Harris

[Woodpuppy]

Some folks. I don’t do this for a trophy. I shoot with friends and am competing against my friends and myself. I want to see improvement in my abilities, but the target doesn’t lie even if the scorecard can. I’m not very generous with “it’s pulling the line”. I think the point is what matters, otherwise you’re giving an advantage to those who shoot fat arrows.

Edited to add, I’ve shot with people who consistently tried to gives themselves a higher score and my group won’t have it. I avoid the folks I’ve witnessed trying that.

[GCook]

I just like to shoot.  I've not shot to win in a long time.  I just got tired of the over competitive folks making it miserable.  I like to shoot a round or two and enjoy it with like minded shooters.  Seems like TBOT offers that kind of atmosphere.   Just wish I had more free weekends to shoot at events.
As for the alleged cheaters, put your money where your mouth is and file a protest.  If you don't have the gumption to do that then just shut up and shoot.

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[T. W. Harris]

"As for the alleged cheaters, put your money where your mouth is and file a protest.  If you don't have the gumption to do that then just shut up and shoot."

GCook, EXACTLY!!

Terry Harris

[Terry Green]

"As for the alleged cheaters, put your money where your mouth is and file a protest.  If you don't have the gumption to do that then just shut up and shoot."

GCook, EXACTLY!!

Terry Harris

Ha!!!....If I said that, I'd be accused of being disrespectful from AK, FL,  an NC. 😆😆😆😆😆

[RJonesRCRV]

I dont think I would attend an event where a score is the primary focus.  Im fine with guys keeping score for themselves, or like at one shoot, the group I joined was practicing for actual scored events, but they kept the mood light and were not very worried about their scores overall.  Side shoots are fine, I have taken part in one for $1 per shooter at a 100+ yard elk target.  After I won the first round, I told everyone how I aimed, and came in like 3rd place the second round.  But that was all just for fun, winning went out the window when we were done.

Once the whole event becomes about winning, count me out.  People get too worked up about the win and suck all the fun out of the air.  A cheater lowers the fun at an exponential rate, so I will avoid that as best I can.

[T. W. Harris]

Good responses, you're right Terry, Lol.

Look, I also like shooting with my friends, they're the ones I like to beat, especially my bride, LOL.  And I want her to know that last comment, I'll tell her!

As for my event, the Howard Hill Classic, I would hope all are honest.  I know some love to win and do so honestly, and every person I've ever shot with had always given everyone in the group the benefit of the doubt.  If I'm calling the score and the arrow is into the line, I give the higher score, BUT, that's me.  I also respect someone else's score calling as well.

Mine is a fairly large event in the south and I really like the multi-round format where families & friends can shoot, shoot & shoot some more, AND, if they happen to get a better score at the end of the day, so be it. 

It's all supposed to be fun.

Terry Harris

[Crittergetter]

If I ever win a tournament you’d better check my card cause I probably cheated! 

I shoot for fun but always try my best and try to shoot with like minded people.
And we give each other crap and accuse them of cheating. It’s all part of the fun. But you can bet your bottom dollar if I caught someone cheating I’d make it known publicly!
But I’ve never seen anyone even try to cheat and hope it never happens.

[olddogrib]

Unfortunately, the number of archery clubs in my area is forever shrinking as well as the number of shooters in the traditional class.  It's rare that there are enough shooters in it to even award trophies or money, so we are allowed to shoot "fun" rounds at reduced rates.  We are allowed on the courses before they technically open.  We all know each other and don't give a rat's azz if somebody has an elevated rest or is shooting a crawl as long as it doesn't have wheels or a stock.  We have way more fun than the wheelie boys that have their own caddies and take so long at every stake they have to enforce time limits...can you say archery hell, lol!

[Possum Head]

I’m not competitive either but enjoy watching the talent in the shoot offs! Though I don’t keep score the competitors I’ve shot with are honest as I believe most Trad folks are. No cheater can truly enjoy a title.

[frassettor]

If you have to cheat to win you still haven't won.

Well said

[GCook]

I fished a lot back in the 90s.  My neighbor talked me into joining his bass club.  I fished 9 tournaments with them over ayear.  Won 3 and placed top 5 in 3.  Boater/no boater draw for each tournament so it's almost impossible to cheat.
However each month at the meeting there was an argument or fight about accusing the top guys of cheating.  And so it happened with me as well.
I quit that club and moved on.  So did Joe eventually.   He moved out of the neighborhood after he retired a couple years ago.
It's not just cheaters that ruin the fun.  It's the jealous accusers as well.  After a while it gets really old.

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[Pine]

I haven't been to an archery shoot sender 1978 just for the reason's mentioned.
Got tired of the smart mouths and the 1st place winner getting DQed for some Chickec s@#$ rule about there setup.
Nope, won't even go to a shoot unless it's just a bunch of guys just flinhin'  arrows.

[Possum Head]

If you have to cheat to win you still haven't won.

Well said

X2