CHEATING at Archery Events

[Basinboy]

I really like the shootoff!
Morals and ethics have become a thing of the past. Everyone gets a trophy   

[killinstuff]

Archery isn't a team sport and bowhunting isn't against another person.  I have little time for folks who care about how the other guy shoots.  Those are the same guys who worry about how much money someone makes, how big their house is or what car they drive.  Cheating to look better is as pathetic as the guys who envy the winners.  But besides that????

[McDave]

Archery isn't a team sport and bowhunting isn't against another person.  I have little time for folks who care about how the other guy shoots.  Those are the same guys who worry about how much money someone makes, how big their house is or what car they drive.  Cheating to look better is as pathetic as the guys who envy the winners.  But besides that????

I tend to share this same sentiment.  At the level I shoot, I’m either going to get a blue ribbon or a red ribbon or a white ribbon or no ribbon.  Who really cares?  The only thing I care about is conquering my own demons and trying to shoot better than one or two of my friends with whom I'm personally competitive.  Within my own group of friends, if we're arguing about whether somebody's arrow cut the line of not, it's usually to argue that it did, whereas the person who shot it thought it didn't.  I'd prefer to keep these local tournaments low key friendly events, and if someone wants to cheat to win a blue ribbon, then that's more his problem than it is mine.

Of course, at a higher level or if money or something valuable is involved, then it's a different ballgame.

[Red Beastmaster]

The group of guys I shoot with refuse to keep score. Our aim is toward killing shots anyway, scoring rings are meaningless. We don't need a score card to determine if we had a good time. We applaud the good shots and laugh at the bad ones.

There is one competition per year that I attend. Its the Block Shoot in Herminie PA next weekend. It's all good fun. We shoot, we talk, we praise good shooting, and walk off as friends when it's over.

[Doug Treat]

Years ago I noticed a father and his son (about 10 years old) seemed to win a lot at our club 3D shoots. I also noticed that they were not very good shots.  I watched them closer one time and they were taking 4 or 5 shots at each target but since they only shot together with no one else in the group, they made up their own rules and only wrote down their best score. I thought it sad that the kid was being taught to cheat to win a plastic trophy that he couldn’t even take pride in. The club leaders finally caught them and they stopped coming to the shoots.

[Flying636]

I have 4 grown sons. They all are die hard trad shooters. We started going to the big shoots when they were in diapers,as a family. The wife knows how to shoot but mostly went to help and watch.

Fast fwd 30 years.....

We as a group,are intensely competitive. If it's a big shoot,we may or not turn in cards..... small shoots we do,to get the participant #s up. But one thing is for sure..... we are working and practicing as much as each of us sees fit. And we keep scores EVERY time. It is a rarity that our events don't come down to the last target. "Fun" doesn't even come close to how much of a horse race our rounds seem to always finish as.

It's a shame the OP is having to deal with this. Don't really know what to say.

[pavan]

 We were actually accused of cheating.  So we stopped keeping score.  One fence pole were required to toe what was a near impossible position, so I switched hands, dropped to my knees, held the bow flat to get under a branch and heeled the stake behind me. The other fellow borrowed my bow for a shot and did the same.  A couple of string crawlers with pink and sky blue bows were upset about our versatility, even though they scoped every target for yardages and spent a half hour discussing it as a group before they shot. Screw it, ya'll can keep your trophy shoots.

[Sam McMichael]

This is so disappointing to hear. This year's event is the only time I have ever won, or even placed. This news takes quite a bit of the luster off an otherwise stupendous weekend. I guess all competitive activities have the potential for this, but generally, our community adheres to a higher standard. I wish if somebody does have evidence of cheating, they will make it known, even if they just quietly notify Terry. Again, so disappointing.

[Possum Head]

The group of guys I shoot with refuse to keep score. Our aim is toward killing shots anyway, scoring rings are meaningless. We don't need a score card to determine if we had a good time. We applaud the good shots and laugh at the bad ones.

There is one competition per year that I attend. Its the Block Shoot in Herminie PA next weekend. It's all good fun. We shoot, we talk, we praise good shooting, and walk off as friends when it's over.

Well said, when I pull my Kanati up a tree this fall all those kill shots I’ve made at 3D events have both prepared me in a realistic fashion and will provide needed confidence when my deer emerges

[hawkeye n pa]

The wife and I was involved in the state shoots back in the late 70's and 80's.  Anytime a ethics question came up at a shoot she had to "attend the meeting".   Proving the cheating was and still is quite hard. We eventually quit shooting competitively  for the most part because  of the hassle.  Some people just don't care about rules.

[GCook]

This is so disappointing to hear. This year's event is the only time I have ever won, or even placed. This news takes quite a bit of the luster off an otherwise stupendous weekend. I guess all competitive activities have the potential for this, but generally, our community adheres to a higher standard. I wish if somebody does have evidence of cheating, they will make it known, even if they just quietly notify Terry. Again, so disappointing.

Sam don't let it disappoint you.  If you shot a good clean shoot and did well that's something to be happy about.  As said previous cheaters don't really win.  Heck I shot an event earlier this year and thought I'd made a bad shot.  I used a mulligan and missed.  I was wrong, the first arrow was a 10.  So I ended up with a zero for that target.  That 10 would have put me in second place.  Both my shooting buddies were unaware of the mulligan scoring rules, that you have to take that second arrows score regardless.
It didn't matter to me.  The belt buckles or whatever would get thrown in a drawer.  I was just so excited over my best score thus far and had a blast with my friends.

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[T. W. Harris]

Sam McMichael, none of this thread was pointed at any particular person at the Howard Hill Classic.

But, over the years I kept hearing about this one or that one and I just feel if someone's going to bring it up, BACK IT UP.

I'm proud of the way you shot and you certainly deserved your place on that podium.

I'm already planning some very exciting things for next year's HH Classic!

Terry Harris

[Grumpyjim]

I've seen the shoot off to be very effective in seperating some unscrupulous archers from top shooters. I am far from being a top shooter so nothing's at stake for me. What I hate to see is someone bumped from the top of the heap by someone with a sharp pencil.

[Rufus]

Gotta be something to the fact that most of the bi***in' comes from them that's doing the losin'. 

I do lots of 'losin' but I well know it ain't cause someone be cheating.........

I'm a firm believer that if'n you cain't back it up , shut it up.   

[Fattony77]

At the Oklahoma State Recurve Championship, in order to alleviate questions as to the authenticity of people's scorecards, they do the double scorekeepers AND require that you do your round with someone that you don't know (or at least didn't come with). I like this approach because it not only encourages honesty in scoring, but you also get to know new people every event.

[danbow]

Sam McMichael, none of this thread was pointed at any particular person at the Howard Hill Classic.

But, over the years I kept hearing about this one or that one and I just feel if someone's going to bring it up, BACK IT UP.

I'm proud of the way you shot and you certainly deserved your place on that  podium.

I'm already planning some very exciting things for next year's HH Classic!

Terry Harris.   Then why bring it up if it wasn’t an issue?

[T. W. Harris]

DanBow, I brought it up because it has been an issue before, not only at my event but others as well.

I was just offering one solution of what out there is many.

Anything else sir.  Feel free to offer any other comment you'd like.

Terry Harris

[Orion]

The shoot off is the way to keep people (more ) honest.  At our state shoot, we have a qualifying round on Saturday and a bracketed, seeded (based on the qualifying score) shoot off on Sunday.  Yeah, folks may fudge to get into the shoot off, but no way to do it at the shoot off.  Each pair of shooters is accompanied by a scorer, who watches for rule violations, scores all the shots and keeps the score.  The shooters can't even approach the targets.   

[GCook]

The NRA has shooter classifications.  Your first match score establishing what class you are. B, A, AA, AAA AND Master.  You have to shoot three scores above your current class to be bumped up a class.  That way you are competing against those at your competitive level.  You have a chance to win, at least at your level and have less of a sense of no hope to achieve competitively as well.
For example I have scores ranging from the low to mid 200s in TBOT.  I don't stand much of a chance of taking home too many buckles and competition isn't really my thing anymore although it used to be.  However if there were say three levels, maybe I could place in one of those levels encouraging me to compete more instead of knowing my scorecard is really just a fun round and always will be.

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[JAH518]

Well why not put my 2 cents in on the subject.

I do not shoot many 3D shoots or tournaments but have shot a few. I have always thought for big 3D tournaments allowing shooters to pick their own score keeper and shooting partners was a little suspect. It's like a golf scramble, you put a group of people that are friends together and expect cheating not to happen? I wish everyone was trust worthy but their not!!!!! Now I'm sure the large majority of us have enough respect for themselves, others and the sport to score truthfully.

So how could untruthful scoring almost be completely eliminated?

Use a scorer at each station! if you go to any large sporting clay shoot there is a person called a trapper at each station who records hit and losses. Yes its a lot of extra bodies to have volunteer for a shoot. Another option is have registered shooters volunteer to man a station for a set time. The score keeper for each station would be the only person allowed to call and log a score. Any disputes in scoring would have to be taken to a predetermined official and photo evidence showing shot placement, the scorer and shooter in the picture if at all possible would have to be provided.