New to arrow tuning and having a hard time getting it right

[Wilderlife]

Hi fellas,

This thread is more of a vent than anything.      One of my main problems when it comes to tuning my arrows (besides the fact that it's the first time having a crack) is that I don't live anywhere near a shop that stocks supplies, so every time I want to try something new I have to order stuff, wait for it to get here, and then stuff around.

I have a 54# @ 28 Black Widow PCH. My best guess is that I draw about 27 inches.

Lately I've been practicing a lot with Easton Powerflights in 400 spine, cut to about 30 inches? Standard Easton aluminium insert and a 125gn point (plan on hunting with 130gn broadheads). I fletch using 4 inch AAE trad vanes - 3 per arrow. I've never really tuned this setup but it shoots OK, not that there is any indication of me doing anything right. I've been focusing more on my form than tuning at the moment.

Now it's crunch time and I need to think about tuning. My current arrow setup (stated above) I don't believe is anywhere near 500gn. I'm less concerend with FOC as I am with trying to be close to 10gns per pound of draw weight, so I should shoot for something around 500 grains.

Ordered some 100gn brass Gold Tip inserts and glued one in one of my arrows. Also cut it to 29 inches - half because I wanted to 'guess what would work' and also because I scratched the shaft pulling out the Easton insert so I cut a bit off anyway. After a few cracks at my target I missed and hit a backstop and busted open the front of the arrow like the top of a pineapple! That hasn't happened before.

A bit of a google and some youtube videos ended up with me cutting 1 inch of 2219 aluminium arrow I had laying around and gluing it over the top of another arrow that I glued the 100gn brass insert into. Still a little weak it seems, so I cut it to 28 inches, and still too weak. Once I made sure my releases were consistent and my nock height wasn't causing some rocking-horse stuff, I was consistently getting my nock hitting a few inches left at least of where it needed to be.

I could of course go and get some 200gn points and use them in the arrows with the regular Easton inserts, but I'd probably still fall a little short of the 500gn mark. This is causing me to feel that 400gn is actually too weak and I need to move up to a 340 spine.

Funnily enough, I have a lot of 340gn arrows, but they are for my compound bow and cut to 27.5 inches, which doesn't leave me much wiggle room at all!

How frustrating!  All I can do is laugh. The positive is that I have figured out that with this sort of weight up front I know I need a stiffer arrow. Now I just need to order some.

As a side note, does anyone have a better/easier idea for strengthening the front of my arrow than cutting 1 inch lengths of aluminium arrows? Keep in mind that options may be limited in Australia.

Thanks for reading my big vent in this venture.

[flyonline]

Welcome to the joys of being in a niche part of a small sport in a two bit economy on the opposite side of the world with crappy postage and few shops targeted at trad bowhunters - but you've already figured that out 

First off I'd say get your draw length dialed in properly. If it hasn't been suggested, try a clicker to make sure you're drawing the exact same length every time. Cos you're in the same boat as me i.e. in the middle of nowhere, I'll happily send you one of my own that I cobbled together with bits available here as there were none locally. They're dead easy to make and very adjustable both with the click and length. Just PM me with address if you like. I'm totally converted now, if I get a squirrely arrow I know it's my release and not me short/over drawing and since I have been using it as a psychotrigger has helped with my target panic.

I shoot a 55# Shakespeare Warrior and I'm closer to 29" but my full length 340 GT Trads, 100gr brass insert, 125gr field point/BH with 2" brass external footing are dead on for me and come in at 680gr and 21% FOC. Having seen what 640gr does out of 47# I'm confident I could take anything bar possibly Buff up north. A heavy arrow quietens a bow a lot too!

With regards stiffening the spine, as you've found an external footing works well plus adds extra strength where it's needed - again totally converted to footings as they save arrows! My arrows above have survived a few fence post/rail interactions where I had to cut the field point out with an axe. When I was playing around tuning arrows for the bow above, I found that 2x 100gr brass inserts back to back were no visually weaker than 1x 100gr insert. I'm not 100% confident that just adding another insert will stiffen the arrow beyond what the extra weight will weaken it, but this is what I could see with my eye. Further testing is needed in the future, but I do know that Ed Ashby recommended adding a hardwood internal footer (much like a second insert) to add structural integrity and stiffen the spine and a small amount of weight. If you're not chasing FOC you can add weight to the back, whipper snipper cord is often used, but rope, wooden dowel, sand etc. can also work. It might also be worth adjusting your brace height to see if you can tune it out if it's close, or add a thicker side plate or toothpick to bring the arrow further out.

I always keep an uncut arrow/spare insert etc. etc. for later testing where possible as you never know what the next bow or arrow setup will require and saves having to order a set of arrows just to try a spine up/down.

Steve

[GCook]

I'm shooting about 51lbs at my draw length which is a quarter inch less than yours.  You should be around 51lbs as well.  I cut my 400s to 30.5" and run 150 grain heads.  340s I cut the same but run 175 grains up front.  Both tuned out well for me and provide full penetration on pigs.  I've yet to try the 340s on deer.

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[Ross McLeod]

I’m in Oz, a near total newbie and just thought I’d offer my condolences regarding getting your head around it all. I’ve been to four shops in Melbourne and have been a tad underwhelmed by the experience, but willing to give them the benefit of the doubt, I just need to not be afraid to question their logic when they trot out pat answers.

Dunno how you can make sense of it, so I’m all ears on this topic too.

 

[g54]

Yeah living in the bush slows ya down when ones in a hurry.You need to properly measure your draw length, not approximations,and it needs to be consistent in its length.The bow must be weighed at your draw length.With these recurve/longbows draw length consistency
is everything.You should be able to shoot a 500 spine @50/54lbs.I shoot 500 g/t kenetics with75gr s/steel insert and 175 northern b/h
@29 right on 54lbs.I just weighd 2 right now they were 518& 520grns.Keep at it because theres thousands prepared to help you.

[A Lex]

Hey Dylan

Can't help you with carbon mate, as I have only ever shot wood, but might I suggest looking up Paper Tuning/Testing, and having a go at that.

I've had great results using paper to tell me exactly what my arrows are doing. Working it out from there is much easier when I KNOW what is happening. Its almost like the arrows tell me what they need to shoot/tune. Granted it's only "a" way to tune, not necessarily "the" way, but it sure works well for me.

Hope that helps.

And yes, the distinct lack of any decent Trad friendly/knowledgeable stores around doesn't help things either. That's why I like it here on TradGang, so many have "been there, done that, learnt this", and are very gracious sharing their knowledge and experience. Many great vendors here too. I'd be stuffed without them.

Best
Lex

[Ross McLeod]

Cheers blokes. All good stuff and grist for the mill. Shall work on getting a consistent draw length and I’ll give the paper test a whirl. I note a few conflicting opinions on the clicker, but can’t hurt to try one out.

[Wilderlife]

Thanks very much for the advice and support, everyone.

I tried to do some bareshaft tuning tonight at the club but a combination of stress and being worn out from the gym saw me shoot like crap. I couldn't make the arrows do the same thing twice, so I gave up and came home.   

It's amazing how much fletches/vanes/feathers can cover up bad form or poorly tuned arrows.

[McDave]

I sympathize with your lack of expert assistance in Australia.  Just to let you know, things aren't much different in the US.  In a fair sized city like Sacramento, over 1 million population in the local area, we have exactly one dedicated archery shop, and it is about 95% dedicated to compound bows.  There are several chain stores that have archery departments, but we're even less likely to receive good advice on traditional archery there.  I don't know how many shops there are in all the US that are dedicated to traditional archery; there are a few, but it would be rare to have one closer than a day's drive away.  The closest one to me is probably Raptor Archery in Hood River, Oregon. 

So mostly we depend on the same resources you have: Trad Gang, Traditional Bowhunter magazine, videos on YouTube, and books.  We have two advantages you don't have, which are seminars presented by experts who travel around the country, like Rod Jenkins, and many bowyers who are open to visits and discussions with people who drop by.  I've also picked up useful tips at traditional tournaments (along with a fair amount of baloney).  If one wishes to take advantage of it, it is also fairly inexpensive to try out a lot of bows here by buying and selling used equipment.

Maybe that's the way it has always been with traditional archery: a lot of experimentation and self-discovery, reinvention of the wheel a thousand times over, and many blind alleys.  Sort of makes it more interesting, no?

[A Lex]

Sort of makes it more interesting, no?

Absolutely McDave, I've really enjoyed most of the journey so far, and the very small amount that wasn't all that enjoyable, well I guess that's bound to happen, no matter what one chooses to persue hey. 

So much more yet to learn and enjoy, and I'm looking forward to it 

Best
Lex

[Ross McLeod]

Maybe that's the way it has always been with traditional archery: a lot of experimentation and self-discovery, reinvention of the wheel a thousand times over, and many blind alleys.  Sort of makes it more interesting, no?

Which is why I’m here. I’ve come to archery lateish in life and know that I am well into it for the long haul, but it’s the way this deceptively simple thing - a couple of sticks, feathers and a string - can be so gobsmackingly complex and engaging. I couldn’t be happier!

Wilderlife - did the exact same thing this arvo. Been two days in bed with the flu, just had to give the bareshaft a go, but promptly retreated back to bed, tail between my legs. Couldn’t focus past my snot! 

[Wilderlife]

I had a breakthrough moment this evening!

A mate advised me that while indications right now suggest a 400 spine is too weak, I should still cut a bit more off it, just because.

I got a shaft and drew it a half dozen times and got my partner to mark where the riser came to on the arrow each time. Averaging it all it, my draw length is still likely somewhere between 26.5 inches and 27 inches. Not surprising. I'm only short at 5ft 7in.

So, the 400 with 225 up front was 28 inches. I cut it to 27.5 inches. I can't say that it flew 100% perfect as I still got some nock left, nock right, and nock dead centre readings - my release and form playing part again! But, what I can say, is that the consistency was loads better than what I got last night. This is something absolutely workable.

It was close enough that I'm confident I could put some vanes on and be good to go, but for the sake of interest and curiosity, I may try a shaft cut to 27.75 inches, just to be sure. I'll see what happens. I could just do that 'next time' as I know what I have now would be miles ahead of my arrows I've been practicing with - 400s with 145 up front, cut to 31 inches.

Only other consideration is I need a new broadhead to use as the ones I have come past the shaft a bit. That's an easy fix, though. The company I like (Outback Broadheads - out of Australia) have a 130gn Supreme, which looks nice.

And on that subject, I could have solved some of my issues easier by going with different points but I really wanted to support the Australian broadhead company and they only make them in 130gn and 200gn.

[Hoosierarcher88]

I just got over a 2 month span of fighting the tune on 2 identical bows. Everything i had tested showed way weak. I experimented with .260 spine all the way to .500 spine in carbons and 50-55# spine in woods and nothing made sense. I was constantly showing weak except the woods which showed stiff even though they should have been the weakest of them all. That was until i accidentally put a 300 grain tip onto some 31" .400 spine carbons and boy dif they shoot great. Then out of curiosity i bumped up to a 190 grain tip on the woods and yet again amazing results. Come to find out the entire time i had been chasing my tail when i really just had a horrible case of false weak readings the entire time. The arrows in shooting now show a dynamic spine on the calculators of 37.4# and shoot perfect and bareshaft perfect out of my 50# ilf recurve. Just goes to show sometimes you gotta think way outside the box.

[Wilderlife]

Interesting observations, mate.

Here is a 22 yard group I shot last night. Definitely room for improvement but the arrows are flying well as far as I can tell.



Easton Powerflight 400s cut to 27.5 inches.
100gn brass Gold Tip insert.
125gn field point.
3x4 inch AAE trad vanes.

I also bought 1dz Gold Tip Hunters in 400 and cut them down so they'll make up the bulk of my hunting arrows shortly.

[Mike Bolin]

Sent you a PM!

[ozy clint]

I was constantly showing weak except the woods which showed stiff even though they should have been the weakest of them all. That was until i accidentally put a 300 grain tip onto some 31" .400 spine carbons and boy dif they shoot great. Then out of curiosity i bumped up to a 190 grain tip on the woods and yet again amazing results. Come to find out the entire time i had been chasing my tail when i really just had a horrible case of false weak readings the entire time. Just goes to show sometimes you gotta think way outside the box.

Therein lies a clue. I'm convinced that a lot of people are shooting arrows that are too stiff.
Lots of people say they are shooting something like a 30" 340 spine with 200gr upfront out of a 55# bow. If that's the case then there isn't an arrow made that can handle a 300gr tuff head on a steel adapter, 100gr insert and a 70# bow.

[Mike Bolin]

Ozy Clint, I agree with you. When I started bare shaft testing I found that I was shooting arrows that were way too stiff. I used to shoot 5 1/2" feathers to get good flight and now I'm down to 4". I feel there are a lot of shooters that struggle because they are shooting the wrong (usually too stiff) arrow spine.

[Wilderlife]

Interesting thoughts, fellas.

I got my 130gn broadheads yesterday and the manufacturer gave me some 200gn heads to try, so just for the sake of curiosity, I may put both on and compare the flight. Having a 200gn head would mean my arrow would be 300gn up front, so I'm not sure whether that sounds extreme or not with my setup.

[KillerBiteFuzz]

Here is a video, that I did hopes it helps. I have been shooting gold tips forever

Tuning Gold Tip Arrows to a Black Widow PSR Iron Wood Recurve Bow for Archery and Bow Hunting


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[ozy clint]

300gr upfront is not extreme. That's what I have on my 58# setup. 250gr point, 50gr insert.

You may need to try a heavier point than 200gr to see a difference if they are in fact too stiff by some margin. Or try a longer shaft