Arrow strength

[snowplow]

I am diving deep into arrows again and have some questions.

1. GPI vs toughness. The thinner the wall the lighter the grains per inch. Does that simply mean they get weaker and weaker? Are thinner shafts always weaker? or, is there some construction technique and other factors that make certain ones stronger? Or to put it another way are there any light GPI shafts that are much tougher than the rest?

2. There are so many heavy duty front and systems for these arrows nowadays that it's a little confusing. Can any of them make a light GPI arrow into a tough arrow? I've ran high FOC really light GPI arrows in the past and loved how they shot. The problem is if I look at them wrong they break.

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[madmaxthc]

Something I have noticed with carbon arrows, is that putting a lot of weight up front really makes them prone to go cauliflower. The collars from 3rivers put a fix to that, together with long inserts (100grains brass insert). I am not sure which of the two mattered the most, but haven't broken an arrow since.

Just my 2 cents
Max

[two4hooking]

I am still amazed by how tech. savvy one needs to be to understand modern arrows these days...

 

I was expecting a discussion on cedar vs spruce vs hickory vs Ash.  I guess I'm a dying breed LOL.

[Pat B]

You are not alone. Two4. I'm not in to the technical parts of archery. At 69 years old I still have my woodies and plan to keep them til the end.     

[Roy from Pa]

Ah two4, dog gonnit, ya didn't mention bamboo arrows:)

[snowplow]

Here's another one. I see lots of low GPI standard and axis size shafts but l haven't noticed low GPI skinnies. So are guys not running high FOC skinny setups?

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[McDave]

Here's another one. I see lots of low GPI standard and axis size shafts but l haven't noticed low GPI skinnies. So are guys not running high FOC skinny setups?

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These help with skinny shafts.  These insert/outserts for Victory VAP shafts are like having a built-in footing.  My own experience has been that I seem to break less skinny shafts than comparable gpi larger diameter shafts, which makes sense to me because to get the same gpi, the wall thickness has to be less for larger diameter shafts.

The overlap shown in this photo is the amount of shaft that fits inside the insert/outsert, about 1/2”. These inserts are available in weights from about 30-100 grains, with 30 grains being all aluminum, and 100 grains being all stainless steel.  Intermediate weights combine aluminum and stainless steel.

[snowplow]

Thanks Dave

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[Sam McMichael]

I have never felt the need to concern myself if my arrows are strong enough to kill a deer. If I hit him good he dies. Perhaps this is an issue with some of the bigger, tougher, and more dangerous animals, but mostly, the average guy needs to concentrate on tuning. There once was a time when I wish I needed to worry about shaft toughness, footing, etc. to ensure proper performance on tough game, but at age 70, that is no longer a factor. For us guys that shoot wood, we have ash, hickory, bamboo when we are concerned about arrow strength.

Still, if some solid data is clarified, I will be interested in hearing about it.

[snowplow]

Fair enough, but lm not concerned about shafts being strong enough to kill deer. I am trying to use my money wisely so the arrows l build won't break the first time they go in the dirt. I feel like everyone can get behind this.

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[two4hooking]

Ah two4, dog gonnit, ya didn't mention bamboo arrows:)

/quote]

I was going to mention those if there was wood arrow talk 

[Kevin Dill]

I've shot Beman/Easton carbons in the past...somewhere near 25% FOC. I experienced the occasional failure at the insert/shaft interface, but generally the shafts were strong enough to satisfy me. I don't shoot a lot and all I ask of a shaft is that it holds up well when killing big game. I suppose durability isn't a big deal for me, but there's no downside to having it for sure.

Right now I'm getting used to a combo of Victory VAP shafts and Valkyrie Archery components....specifically their Centerpin Sleeve and Centerpin Broadhead Adapter. The sleeve and adapter combination looks like it will provide a large degree of protection to the end of the shaft. There's a definite learning curve to getting things figured out before ordering and building, as the expense is considerable.

I've killed one deer thus far this season with that setup. The shot was pretty steep at 25' elevation x 10 yards from tree. The arrow passed through completely and the broadhead hit a rock, damaging the tip of the Abowyer head. The shaft and components came through fine. I reworked the broadhead tip and that arrow is still in the #1 position in my quiver.

[madmaxthc]

I am still amazed by how tech. savvy one needs to be to understand modern arrows these days...

 

I am not sure that's true, compared to the amount of time/expertise to make wooden arrows from scratch.
Heck,  in the middle ages it took 10 years before you could be called a master in making strings. Now you can buy synthetic filaments and it doesn't take much to learn how to make a Flemish. You lucky guys!  Back in my time...   
 

[Tedd]

Snowplow,
Generally you would think that higher gpi means stronger, thicker wall means stronger and smaller diameter means thicker wall.  But there are exceptions. And your question is a good one because the trend to shoot long, heavy weight heads can push a shaft to it's limits. I had trouble with the .204 Easton axis trads. They aren't so tough with the supplied inserts and even some aftermarket half-outs. (though most guys claim they are how tough they are) They actually look like there is a paper wrapper in there. Anything in the Easton woodgrain carbon seems to have the same properties. The front end can be cured with an aluminum footing. Except those shafts don't like a side impact at all.
  I understand that a long head or target point has more leverage to snap a shaft on an angled hit. I think the heavy weight also makes breaking the front of a shaft easier but I don't know what the science is behind that.
 You have a lot of choices of inserts and footings now, like Tuffhead that should make snapping a shaft behind the head a thing of the past. But you still want a good quality shaft whether it is  small or standard diameter.
 After two years in a row having a .204 Easton shaft snap behind the head causing poor penetration and loss of bucks, I went to back standard diameter and switched to Black Eagle shafts. I'm impressed with the toughness and use no footings even with a total of 300 grains up front. Maybe its in my head but I think it is a more shootable/forgiving shaft. I wish they made a .204 shaft. I might try their micro diameters.
Black Eagle does make .204 shafts in non-wood grain models. I have them but prefer a lighter colored shaft for hunting.
 You might spend a little money finding a setup you like. Sometimes you have to order a couple scenarios of inserts and outserts and footings. Sometimes you have to put a new set of shafts on the shelf and try another type. Until a shooter finds their favorite recipe he can't just point and click on the perfect setup to be delivered to the door. But you can point and click on a lot of options!
And sometimes you get the wood arrows out and wonder why you don't just use them instead!

Someone mentioned being tech savy? Nah, get an assortment of inserts, outserts and points and have fun. Glue things up with hotmelt while experimenting.

Tedd

[snowplow]

Thanks Tedd for the great help.

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