Hill Style vs Reflex Deflex draw weight

[TxSportsman]

I don't have any experience with an ASL or Hill Style Longbow but am really interested in picking one up. To this date, all of my bows be it recurve or longbow, have been in the 56"-62" range and somewhere between 40-50# draw at 28". I am currently shooting two bows that weigh in right around 50# or a smidge more and am very comfortable at that weight.

My question is this - how will a 66"-68" ASL in a similar draw weight feel? Will it be more of a bear to shoot and feel heavier? Or will it be more mild due to the design and length of the bow?

Thanks for any comments, much appreciated!

[Jim Wright]

 There may be a slightly different feel when shooting but certainly not a "bear" to shoot. I have ended up shooting only Dan Toelke's Super Ds but shot them initially while still owning and shooting his Whip d/r longbows. I personally very much enjoy the feel of shooting them. One plus is how well they perform with heavy 12-12 1/2 to 1 arrows and they are ridiculously quiet.

[Wudstix]

I have been shooting MOAB for years, R/D bow.  Very smooth and pleasant to shot.  It is semi-retired while I learn to shoot the Big River 21st Century Clone that has some R/D to it will more of a"traditional" longbow grip.  Learning to love that bow.  Recently, got a Kota LB in the PBS raffle last year.  Slightly dished handle and more of a D shaped bow.  It will be my back-up bow.  It has been my experience that D Shape bows vary in the amount of hand shock they have.  Many of the newer designs and bows have tamed that very well.
 

[Silent footed]

If you are into hill style, then GET a hill bow!

Don't worry one bit. They are nice to handle. If you are truly in good shape and you can handle a 60-70 arrow session with your 50# bow every day, then get a 50# hill or r/d. If you can't handle 60-70 arrows, then go with something in the 40 pound range. (Being able to shoot a LOT will get you the most out of your hill bow).


Oh and you will hear a LOT about handshock but don't let it scare you. It's practically a myth and mostly nothing to worry about. My r/d bow has exactly zero hand shock; and my hill style (64#), has a quiet, gentle, satisfying thunk on release. it doesn't even need silencers. (Oddly, my r/d needs them). And there is no unpleasantness or discomfort associated with either bow. Just consider it a non-issue in your search for a hill syle!



One thing: Your draw length will decrease by 1" when you switch from a pistol grip to a straight grip. That's just the nature of the hand geometry, not the bow. But it's something to consider when ordering, for sure.


Welcome to the club. Look up john schulz Technic h. Hill on YouTube, and order a copy of Howard hill's hunting the hard way, and start browsing the Howard Hill longbowman forum on traditional archery society.

Hey though, I would read that stuff before you buy your bow. There are some factors to consider. For instance, Howard Hill related a person's height to ideal bow length, and gave reasons for it that make sense.

He was also an advocate of a certain type of longbow over all others, and strongly stressed the unsuitability of certain curvy reflexed bows...just read and see.

[TxSportsman]

Thanks for the quick responses.

Silent Footed - I appreciate your detailed reply. Yes, I can shoot a 60 arrow session at my draw weight and feel fine the next day. What I think you answered for me is I probably don't want to go up in weight, if I change at all I should go down a tad (too bad because I found the exact bow I'm looking for but it weighs in at 55#) though I know I'll lose a few lbs due to the grip now.

I am a TAS member so I'll look more into what your talking about.

I am really looking forward to getting one of these bows. I am really leaning towards a Northern Mist and would love to pick up a 2 piece but I need to also decide how long of a bow for my draw/height. I am 6'0" and draw right around 28".

[STICKBENDER98]

Tx, here's a curve ball for you, since I made the switch from recurve to longbow, mine are all Northern Mist bows, several different models both reverse grip and straight grip, I have actually been increasing my bow weights, and have been going up in length also.  My first was one of Steve's Baraga models that is a 64" bow 51# @ 28".  Since then I have gone to 66" in bow length.  I have noticed a little smoother draw, I have a 66" Superior that is similar to the Baraga that is a 54# bow at 28" and have not noticed any difference with the extra weight.  My last bow from Steve was a 68" American 53# @ 28", and I wish I would have gone heavier with it.  Also I have noticed an increase in my draw length, my arrows that I shot from my recurves that were cut at 28 1/2", I can't shoot with broadheads on anymore, as they hit the front of the riser when I hit my anchor now, I have had to go to 29 1/2" arrow length.  Good luck with your hunt for a bow, I have yet to find "the" bow, I just like them all!!!


Jason

[TxSportsman]

Tx, here's a curve ball for you, since I made the switch from recurve to longbow, mine are all Northern Mist bows, several different models both reverse grip and straight grip, I have actually been increasing my bow weights, and have been going up in length also.  My first was one of Steve's Baraga models that is a 64" bow 51# @ 28".  Since then I have gone to 66" in bow length.  I have noticed a little smoother draw, I have a 66" Superior that is similar to the Baraga that is a 54# bow at 28" and have not noticed any difference with the extra weight.  My last bow from Steve was a 68" American 53# @ 28", and I wish I would have gone heavier with it.  Also I have noticed an increase in my draw length, my arrows that I shot from my recurves that were cut at 28 1/2", I can't shoot with broadheads on anymore, as they hit the front of the riser when I hit my anchor now, I have had to go to 29 1/2" arrow length.  Good luck with your hunt for a bow, I have yet to find "the" bow, I just like them all!!!


Jason

That is a bit of a curve ball Jason... thanks 

If you don't mind me asking, how tall are you? The bow I am looking at is a 68" American and 55@28. I'm super tempted to move on it I'd just hate to over bow. I know for a fact I could grow into that weight though as I've grown into 50#.

[STICKBENDER98]

I’m 5’8” and have had no trouble with it so far, been waiting for the weather to get a bit better here to go shoot from my ladder stand in the backyard to see how that works. 


Jason

[Deno]

 TxSportsman

Good luck on your Hill bow search.   I'm 6'1" and my Hill bows are 68"( 65@28 ) & 70" (70#@28.)  Very smooth and I never experienced hand shock.

Deno

[Orion]

A 68-inch ASL is a good length for a 28-inch draw.  As others have suggested, weight is weight.  I don't think an ASL will feel any heavier or lighter than any other bow at the same draw weight, though the draw force curve might be a little different.

If you're handling 50# now without any trouble, you'll probably be able to handle 55 as well.  Because of the straight grip on an ASL, you'll be shooting with a low wrist, which will shorten your draw length by an inch or so, as has already been pointed out.  This will drop the bow weight a couple of pounds as well.

If it feels too heavy, can always resell it. Let us know what you decide.

[Silent footed]

Oh yeah, man, I'm not discouraging you at all from going up 5 pounds. If you're handling what you have now and like the bow, then go for it.

There are a few NICE bows on eBay. Check it out. Few Robertsons, a kohannah, jd berry....they sit around on there for a while usually before they get sold. I got a nice two piece brass sleeve takedown from there from the Kentucky bowyer a few years back.

 

[TxSportsman]

Some great comments and advice. Thank you everyone that has chimed in so far as well as the private messages. As always, this community is great and because of this thread I may have found a shooting partner less then 40 minutes away.

[bucknut]

You didn't mention your shooting style. If you draw and hold (aim)? The shooting style is another factor that lets Hill style shooters shoot heavier poundage.  Most are snap shooters that do not hold at all.  As soon as you touch anchor she's gone.  I did go up in poundage when I swapped to Hill Style bows. (about 5#)  Watch the John Schulz video Hitting them like Howard Hill. I had always shot a variation of this style. My draw also shortened after switching to Hill bows.  The bow recommended at the top (Super D) was my first step in that direction. Though not considered Hill style by most, It is an absolute pleasure to shoot. It sent me down the Hill road owning several. Its addictive.  I've owned Northern Mist bows also and they are very fine bows. Now I'm off to my next foray, Self Bows.

[TxSportsman]

You didn't mention your shooting style. If you draw and hold (aim)? The shooting style is another factor that lets Hill style shooters shoot heavier poundage.  Most are snap shooters that do not hold at all.  As soon as you touch anchor she's gone.  I did go up in poundage when I swapped to Hill Style bows. (about 5#)  Watch the John Schulz video Hitting them like Howard Hill. I had always shot a variation of this style. My draw also shortened after switching to Hill bows.  The bow recommended at the top (Super D) was my first step in that direction. Though not considered Hill style by most, It is an absolute pleasure to shoot. It sent me down the Hill road owning several. Its addictive.  I've owned Northern Mist bows also and they are very fine bows. Now I'm off to my next foray, Self Bows.

I wouldn't call myself a snap shooter but I don't tend to hold my anchor more then maybe 3 seconds give or take? I'll check out the video, thank you!

[Sam McMichael]

Tx, I have experience with both Hill style and R/D bows, and truthfully, I can't say I shoot either one better than the other. However, I am a diehard Hill bow fan, so now that is mostly what I shoot. I have 5 HHA longbows and 2 Northern Mist bows. All are 68" long, even though my draw length is only 25". Some say that puts me at a mechanical disadvantage, but it just seems to draw a bit smoother than shorter bows. One of my Hill style bows, a NM Shelton is made of yew while all the others are bamboo. Yew feels a bit smoother to draw but the bamboo may be a bit snappier. I have 6 R/D bows but only shoot 4 of them. Three are Archery Traditions Bamboo Longhunters and the other is a Deathwish by Steve Welte. They, too, are 68" long. I like them very much. I consider them equal in performance to the Hill style. Both style bows feel good in my hand, and I don't feel underbowed with either style. So, I guess you could say my Hill preference is mostly based on a whim.

I shoot only wood on my Hill style bows (largely due to tradition). But I like wood, and it seems easier to tune, at least for me. I have used both wood and aluminum on the R/D bows with superb arrow performance. It is just a question of preference.

As you might guess, my opinion is that there is no wrong choice between the two styles. I would suggest that you talk to many archers, read a lot of material, and shoot as many of each style as you can. Then choose whichever strikes your fancy. The bow that feels the best and in which you have the most confidence should be the one you choose. You may, in the long run, choose to own both styles. Nothing wrong there.

Regarding bow draw weight, my opinion is that most any healthy man can probably handle a bow in the 50# to 55# range. Just work up carefully to avoid injury and form issues. My bows are stretched out between 40# and 78#, but as I am now a bit older, my hunting bows are in the 50# to 55# range. I like heavy bows, but it is not at all necessary to go heavy, so don't put too much concern into draw weight All this stuff is merely my opinion. I am certainly not an expert, but I have sent quite a few arrows down range with these style bows, as well as recurves in the old days. Good luck on your quest. Have fun!

[TxSportsman]

Great information Sam, much appreciated. The more and more I look at Hill style bows, the shot process, the tradition etc. the more I am drawn to it. I know I can snap shoot with any bow but that's how I really started shooting - watching Howard Hill and taking notes. I have also read two "Instinctive Shooting" books by Asbell. I enjoy shooting targets and would love the chance to go to some 3D shoots at some point but the reason for me to pick up a bow is for hunting so this style seems the most natural for me.

I have just finalized a deal for a Northern Mist American Longbow 2 piece which is 68" and 55@28 which should ship tomorrow. I feel this will actually be a great poundage for me as I know my draw length will shorten about an inch with the grip as well as a slightly earlier anchor point. Either way if I enjoy the bow I'll just grow into it. I can't wait to get it! Thank you all for the replies and messages. I'll try to keep this thread updated as I work through this new venture.

Now... what arrows? Do I fully commit and go wood? I have never shot wood arrows before but have always wanted to try them out. I do have an arrow saw and all of the tools necessary to make my own arrows (I probably need a new fletching jig). Any additional comments on arrow selection would be greatly appreciated as well.

[Silent footed]

Go wood! Others will disagree but I say if you want to be a true traditionalist, wood is the only way to go, but that's only my opinion.

I would not try making your own arrows just yet. Order a test kit and figure out what spine you need. Then order your first dozen pre-made. When you've done plenty of shooting with those, you'll pretty much know the appropriate spine and arrow length, and then you can start dealing with the wood arrow-building learning curve.

I simply recommend that approach because in the past I have experienced endless frustration determining an appropriate tune for a new bow, making up one set of arrows just to determine that I should be shooting with a longer draw, cutting arrows too short while tuning and thinking they're right only to find out I've irreversibly stiffened the dynamic spine and they are actually impacting left of center...or the reverse, thinking they're perfect but then a week later realizing I need to trim them and should have gone with a heavier spine because now I have to go to a shorter arrow length that extends my point on distance past what I want it to be (split vision shooter).  The fact that you're staining, coating, and fletching each set by hand just adds to this frustration, stresses you out, and limits your progress by taking valuable shooting time away that you could be spending shooting and learning your new bow.

You may still decide you want to take the plunge and it's certainly doable. But this is the advice of a guy whose two biggest passions are longbows and wood arrow-crafting, and is interested in getting others involved in them.

[TxSportsman]

Great advice SF, I’ll do that!

[Overspined]

I’d go 69”, side by side noticeably smoother for a 6’ dude! I’d shoot wood or alum. 45/50# with a 450/500 Gr arrow you’re good to go

[Sam McMichael]

TX, the NM should be a good bow. I think you will like it a lot. Wood is a fun choice for arrows. My formula for arrow selection may not work for many others but it suits me fine. As I previously stated, I have a short draw length of 25", yet I like arrow shafts to be 29.5" to the back of the point. I use 125 grain points for target and for hunting. I don't hunt heavy, big boned game, so FOC or EFOC don't interest me much. This arrow configuration allows me to shoot arrows with static spine that matches the bow specs. That is, on my bows that are 50 - 55# draw weight at 28", they fit my bows at my draw length. I do have to fiddle just a bit with some groups of arrow shafts. Others have found my arrow specs to be totally wrong for them, so go figure. Also, be aware that many longbows will handle quite a range of spines adequately. Just tinker a little and get what you like the best. Wood is just plain fun and is more durable than you might guess. If you do get around to making your own arrows, don't be shy about experimenting.