CHEATING AT ARCHERY EVENTS

[T. W. Harris]

Folks, I’m sure we all hear of someone that someone else thinks is cheating.  Well, I am no different.  There is an individual I know that goes to many, many events around the country, I have had many tell me, this person cheats.
Let me say that I personally have never seen nor said this individual cheats, but have heard it more times that I care to remember.
This individual has won at several of these events, including an IBO World Championship.  This individual has also won at my event, the Howard Hill Classic.
Again, let me say that I have never seen this person cheat.
NOW, with all this said, this individual has admitted to a well respected individual in traditional archery circles, that they have at times “FUDGED” on some scores, and of course added, DOESN’T EVERYONE!?
Folks, in my world, FUDGED, is another word for CHEATED!!
Now, when did this take place, what or how many events  and times did this take place, WHO KNOWS!!!  I’m sure this individual didn’t FUDGE to give themselves a lower score, but only to raise their score to place or even win.
I don't know the answers on how we can really stop cheating altogether, but I have always thought if a person has to cheat for a piece of wood or belt buckle, they certainly must have some sort of inferiority complex.
Let me finish by saying I won’t mention this individual’s name, but they, as well as many others, know who they are.
Hopefully, this person will be watched a little closer now.

Terry Harris

[Wudstix]

That’s why we always have one person designated to pull a d score the arrows. If there’s is a question the majority opinion carries the day.

[GCook]

I fished in a bass club one year.  Got invited to join by my neighbor.
Boater/non boater draw for every tournament. So you never knew if you would be in your boat or another members.  Or who that member might be.  Tough situation to cheat in. 
The one season I fished 9 of the 12 tournaments.  The other three conflicted with tournaments in a circuit I fished.  I won three of the nine and placed in the top five in another three.  I took ninth place over all at season's end.
At nearly every monthly meeting someone accused someone else of cheating.  Fist fights occurred, long term friends at each other's throats and me being the insane one, was very unimpressed with being called a cheat.
People do cheat.  Especially if money is at stake.  But coming on a forum and posting an ambiguous accusation about a person you won't name tells me you don't have the proof, or the guts, to file the protest at the contests in question.  Which causes me to question the validity of the accusations.

[Possum Head]

I must say the Hill shoot is the best time a person could have! That said I’ve never turned in a score just love good folks and stickin critters.

[Gordon Jabben]

I hear about it happening all the time but in thirty years of shooting tournaments, I have only noticed cheating once.   Seems that the vast majority of traditional archers are about as honest as you can get.  I shoot mostly for fun now at shoots so maybe something has changed.   

[ron w]

If I were to cheat, it would only get me 15th, maybe 14th.....  most times I never turn a score card in. I do tell someone I am off the course.

[smag]

Why I like putting the winners out on the line on the shootoff! In front of the crowd where aint no funny stuff going on there.

You had a guy post and point me ou last year Terry, he went out Sunday morning. Amazing how my score got topped by a few points? I should have kept that card and gave it to you to post later that day. Kinda thinkin that score would have held up but we had to leave for Tenn . Shot right next to him on Sat evening in the shootdown the 10 place overall shooter took him out easily. Hmmmn.

Its all gud however. We know who they are. Bet you were surprised to hear that name?

HH~

[achigan]

Cloverdale has gone a long way to stopping that with a shoot-off among the top scorers out in front of God and everybody. Anyone who padded their score by much would embarrass themselves at that time. Hopefully someone will give the exact format.

[smag]

Shoot offs in general go like this. I can tell you because I have won a few, seconded a few and thirded a few. Went out first round a number a years ago as well at Worlds.

You shoot the course post a score in your class of bow. When all scores come in the organization takes a % of the total shooters or or top 10 and they move you at a prescribed time to shootoff at a group of targets usually in open for viewing. You shoot for score until there is only one man/woman left.

So, what you see a lot is a very high score in say the Selfbow class. You say " wow that's a really great score for that course"! Then, the person does not show for the shootoff or he pooches it in the shootoff badly. Kinda tells you the deal. After you do this awhile "you know whats up".

HH~

[T. W. Harris]

At the Howard Hill Classic, being a multi round format where one can improve their score, that is why we don't give out anyone's score.

Last year, when I let the IBO have their Mid America here, they rolled everyone's score out so everyone could see.

I knew that was a mistake when I saw it.

The individual I am referring to hasn't been named here, nor the gender, BUT, their name has been brought up for years.  Some say they've witnessed some of this "fudging", but haven't called this individual out. 

Until someone has the courage to do so, this type of "fudging will continue.

I know who this person is, AND MANY OTHERS DO AS WELL, with more who will also find out. 

Again, the individual who told me who this was, is very well respected and shoots with anyone.  I've never heard any wrong doings by this person.

This individual has also told me, if I ever had to use their name, it was OK, the truth should always come out.

Terry Harris

[smag]

Yeah,
You know the guy I'm talking about.   

HH~

[Sam McMichael]

All of us have heard rumors that such and such a person has cheated or done something questionable at tournaments. Unfortunately, that is something that will happen. The multiple rounds and the shoot down of the top shooters help prevent this. Also, just listening and paying attention when each target is scored is useful. Just outside the kill zone can't be "fudged" into the kill if somebody is always paying attention to the score.

Sure, it is fun to be in contention for a prize, but most of us are shooting for fun and often don't even turn in a scorecard. Fortunately, most participants are honest. If a person is proven to cheat, they should be totally banned from the event.

[The Whittler]

You have to remember people who cheat don't look at it that way, they are doing what it takes to win. In their minds eye it isn't cheating that how they convince themselves.

If you confront them they will fight/argue with you because they convince themselves everyone does it so it's OK. The sad part it hurts everyone else.

Confront them and tell them if it happens again everyone will know and they will not be allowed back. And spread the word and their names.

[JAH518]

It's a shame some do these kinds of thing, Its disrespectful to archery and all that truly love competing against others.

I don't say this next part to ruffle anyone's feathers so please don't take it the wrong way. 
I find it just as disrespectful that people have seen this person FUDGE a score and not called them out. Personally I consider a person who has witnessed this first hand a cheater them selves. It's like robbing a bank, you may not of been the one in the bank robbing it but you drove the getaway car. I understand some don't want to have a confrontation but find an official and say something. Have some respect for yourself, this wonderful sport, and all the other shooters.

Again I'm not meaning to ruffle anyone's feathers and sorry if I did. I just can't stand cheating it's nothing more than theft. 

[BAK]

People just want to win, and it happens in "every" sport.  Doesn't matter if it's a 3 dollar plastic trophy or a 100k check.  He!! we just saw a big name golfer on national TV awhile back clearing the sand from behind his ball before he tried to get out of a sand trap.  And you're right, the excuse is always that everyone is doing it.  Well, maybe many are, but that still doesn't make it right.   Does tell you what kind of person they are though.   

[McDave]

As with most of these small time tournaments, the last thing organizers around here want to do is to get into an argument with someone over the rules, so it's mainly an honor system approach.  However, a year ago in the main trad only tournament, a guy decided he should be able to string walk, and he won his division.  I know him, and his argument was that he was using the same equipment as everyone else, so he should be able to shoot it any way he wanted to.  In principle, I agree with him, but if I wanted to string walk, I just wouldn't have turned in my score card.  Other people noticed and complained, so this year they were keeping an eye on him.  He was quite surprised when an official walked up to him, asked to see his score card, and marked “disqualified” across the front of it. He was so pi$$ed and possibly embarrassed that I didn't see him at the range for months afterwards.  Finally he got over it and I notice that he is now practicing without string walking.  Good for the official who did that; it is hard in a situation that is supposed to be all about fun to confront someone, but in this case it was a good call.

I am a stickler for rules, but that cuts both ways.  I like to completely understand the rules as much to know what I can do as what is not permitted.  If someone doesn't like what I’m doing that is within the rules, tough $hit.

[flntknp17]

This is a major reason why I rarely compete anymore at 3D tournaments and strongly favor the round-target type shoots where its far more difficult to fudge things. 

For many years I went and shot the World Archery Festival in Las Vegas and they use a flighted format to make sure that everyone has a chance to win some cash....and that's a good thing....until they started posting the flighted scoring information after day 2 of the three-day tournament.  This means that people could figure out exactly how well (or how poorly) they had to shoot on day 3 to make a bunch of money.  You'd see people shoot some pretty sad scores on day 1 or 2 or both and then an amazing score on day 3 so that they would be sure to win their flight and get a few hundred bucks....for effectively finishing 348th out of 784 shooters in the class or something like that. 

I definitely agree that shoot-downs like the major 3D shoots use are the way to go for the most part.

Matt

[Trumpkin the Dwarf]

I'm confused... You know a fellow who cheats, but won't say their name, or file a complaint, or confront them on it?

[Witherstick]

I think you can see why there is cheating by all the childish remarks about those who feel the need to compete or towards those that don't compete. Competion is driven by our fear goimg back to fighting for mates and food. We don't have to win. We just need to know we aren't the worse. Doing well is just a bonus. Psychologists sometimes refer to it as "last place aversion." You know the old saying about not needing to be the fastest but rather just not being the slowest when a bear is chasing you.

I know many are bothered by knowing that competition is driven out of fear. Good news none of us escape that. We have kept score and turned in cards. We usually have done well and I admit it is nice to not be last.

But i think more is going on here. Indeed, some who are not great shots might indeed fear turning in a score. Likewise many young people want to know they "can" just as older folk fear they no longer "can". I find this is where the cheating and overzealous cries for regulating shoots come from. Too many just fear they aren't good enough and want to wear the title of "competitor" as an intangible participation trophy. They insist noncompetitors must be worse than them. On the other side, noncompetitors want to assume score keepers are just driven by insecurities from youth or age or maybe just never really achieving enough in life.

Gentlmen I suggest that we be a little more mature and be aware of uor own motivations and keep it adult. By the way, some people keep score because it helps them push themselves. Some shoot because traditional archery is an intrinsic motivation and reward for them! Some shoot because they need that extrinsic reward! But we need to act like adults and drop the innuendo towards other's reasons for enjoying 3d shoots before those shooting for fun cause the shoots to lose the competitors OR the competitors make it miserable for families and friends who want to shoot for fun causing them to stop attending.

Bottomm line is we need to accept that good and bad shooters both may or may not compete. But well rounded adults shouldn't be arguing and insulting others over who gets a ribbon or trophy at a 3d shoot. Did no one get enough of that playing organized sports as a child?

[T. W. Harris]

Kirk, what you say may all be true.
BUT, you also need to realize that for those who like to compete and see how they may compare to those that are the top shooters, competition is a good thing.

You also need to realize that for shoots that are competitive, the people that like to compete may drive long distances, spend their hard earned money to attend these events, and, they don't like the idea that some narcissist cheats to win.

IMO, there is no easy fix, but if someone cheats and is caught, not just accused, they should be banned from at least that event.

Terry Harris