CHEATING AT ARCHERY EVENTS

[GCook]

I'm confused... You know a fellow who cheats, but won't say their name, or file a complaint, or confront them on it?

This is my issue with this thread.  It's like two members gossiping or starting drama with no intent of calling the shooter out or taking steps to stop it themselves.  Just an attempt to cause a big discussion here with what being the end result?

[Trenton G.]

Kind of my thoughts on it as well.

When I played golf in high school, there were several kids from different schools who were known cheaters and we all made sure that whoever was golfing in their group knew exactly who to watch out for.

[smag]

You dont need a card to know how well you shoot. Easy to keep the avg in your head for 20, then 20. Just start with 400 and keep a running subtraction. Shoot an 8 -2, a 5 minus 5 more. Easy stuff. Keeping a card is not much harder.

Guess the real test of what kind of archer you are is if show up fat off plenty deer, hog and elk from a good fall/winter or come needing an IV off a double cheeseburger to get around the course.

Everyone enjoys archery differently.

You think USA would have the 2019 world Champion Recurve shooter if he did not like competing?

MAPA

HH~

[T. W. Harris]

Cook & Trenton, I know who this person is, as well as others close to me.

I don't name this person for a reason, but believe me, this person has been taken care of as far as my event is concerned.

Terry Harris

[jsweka]

I'm confused... You know a fellow who cheats, but won't say their name, or file a complaint, or confront them on it?

This is my issue with this thread.  It's like two members gossiping or starting drama with no intent of calling the shooter out or taking steps to stop it themselves.  Just an attempt to cause a big discussion here with what being the end result?

I agree.

[T. W. Harris]

John, no disrespect intended, but unless you walk in my shoes about this issue, you may not fully understand what's going on here.

Let me try and help you.  The issue is, if an individual admits to fudging on there own score, that is cheating, that has been my whole point here.

Terry Harris

[woodchucker]

I like shooting 3D, however I have only attended a few "tournaments".
3D is my practice for hunting season, and more for fun actually! I know it was a good shot before I pull my arrow. That's all that matters to me. I realize that many clubs use the score cards to make sure all are off the course safe & sound, so I always turn mine in. Most times I just write "THANKS" on it, and drop it in the box.

[Tooner]

The only thing that bothers me more than people who knowingly cheat (present in EVERY aspect of life) are people who tattle and gossip about cheaters to others who have no power to rectify the problem.

If a person is thought to be cheating, they should be reported to the authorities and ONLY to the authorities.  If the authorities think the accusation is credible, they should act on it.

Anything else is just grade school gossip and rumor-mongering.

[GCook]

Well Mr. Harris the issue is not the accused at this point IMO.  It's how and why you brought it up the way you did on TG.  Is the individual a member here?  Because honestly your thread looks to me like one intended for something other than a productive discussion.
I could be wrong.

[McDave]

Well Mr. Harris the issue is not the accused at this point IMO.  It's how and why you brought it up the way you did on TG.  Is the individual a member here?  Because honestly your thread looks to me like one intended for something other than a productive discussion.
I could be wrong.

Let's give him a break.  The way I read it is that Mr. Harris is interested in our views on what to me is an interesting social phenomenon: why would people cheat in venues where it really doesn't make much sense to cheat?  Where all there is at stake is a ribbon or cheap trophy and some bragging rights.  Heck, I remember one time years ago where my mother got tired of another woman cheating at her monthly bridge group, and told the group that either my mother or the other woman had to go.  The other woman got the message and left.  The last thing in the world my mother wanted to do was to raise a stink in a social setting, which is exactly how the organizers of local archery tournaments feel.  It takes a lot more than a casual attitude toward the rules to move them to action, but some situations are so blatant that it ruins the experience for those who would really like to know how they stack up against the other competitors.

I think this is entirely different from a championship competition, where valuable prizes and perhaps sponsorships are at stake.  In that venue, cheating becomes more like stealing, and of course the rules have to be more stringently enforced.

I don't think it would be a good idea to “out” any particular individual on this forum for cheating, whether he is a member or not, but discussing the psychological reasons that would drive someone to cheat in what should be a primarily social setting are interesting to me.

[reddogge]

It's pretty hard to cheat around here. No club owns enough good targets to field a 30 target course with all readable scoring lines or newish Rineharts.  Well, maybe one club, Baltimore Bowmen, but they never host a scoring event, all fun stuff.  One of my own clubs is making headway in upgrading their targets and inserts but the other can't afford it.

[Eric Krewson]

I have been to many of Terry's shoots and consider him a friend, he is as straight a shooter as they come and I don't mean at launching arrows. If you pride yourself in being an honest and honorable man it is impossible to look the other way when you consistently see the things that the dregs of society will do.

The point of this thread as I see it is not to slam an individual shooter but to give a subtle heads up to other questionable attendees that someone is looking over their shoulder when they start pencil whipping their score card.

Here is my story,

I ran the tournaments for the Muscle Shoals Archery club for 15 years, we had nighttime ball field 3D tournaments every Saturday in the spring and fall, I don't know how many we had during my tenure but it had to be well over 100.

One guy won over and over, his mo was to run up to the targets quickly before the other guys in the group got there, pull his arrow first, then the others and call out the scores.

Word got out that he was cheating and we confronted him, he admitted it. This guy was the toughest individual I had ever met, rock hard. He was a stand out in any sport he participated in, golden gloves champ, football, everything. He said it had been drummed into him by his first coach that winning was everything, no matter what it took and that was the way he ran his life with no apologies.

We told him if he wanted to shoot our tournaments he couldn't pull arrows or keep score. Strangely he was OK with that, I noticed a change in him, instead of blood in your eye serious as he had been in the past he started laughing, joking and having a good time at the tournaments.

More on how tough this guy was; He fell out of a tree deer hunting and badly broke his back, a week later he was back in the tree hunting again, he swallowed the pain and kept on going.

Now, I fell out of a tree and badly broke my back, a week later I was still rolling out of the bed and literally crawling to the bathroom because I couldn't stand up because the pain.

I lost track of this guy over the years, last year I ran into some people who knew him. They said he was still trying to go to work but the incredible pain he faced every day from his beat up body had turned him into an alcoholic drug addict, I guess winning had a cost after all. Like they say, what you do comes back to you.

Sorry for the long boring story, my point is, you never know what motivates people to cheat.

[GCook]

McDave you may be right and honestly that is an interesting perspective.
However after being called a cheat because I out fished guys who thought they were the next BassMasters champion (yes that dates me)was irritating. 
Having to defend myself on a boat ramp from two of the accusers on a boat ramp with my fists was down right disgusting.   It came to a head when one of the drunk idiots threatened me with a weapon at a club cookout no less.  Cheating happens.  And I believe cheaters should be confronted.  Privately.  But there should be evidence before accusations and if founded the individual should be banned.  Publicly.

[Tooner]

  The way I read it is that Mr. Harris is interested in our views on what to me is an interesting social phenomenon: why would people cheat in venues where it really doesn't make much sense to cheat?

Just as interesting in my opinion, are the folks that just assume that if they don't win, someone must have cheated.  Whether we want to admit it or not, there are just as many of those types out there.  In my opinion, both usually boil down to fragile egos and feelings of inferiority.     

[BAK]

Some very interesting comments on this thread.  I love to shoot 3d and I love to compete, but having said that doesn't anyone else find it ironic that 3d foam targets are so "prone" to this problem?

Unlike paper targets you can't even see what your supposed to be shooting at, and lines are irregular embossed impressions in the foam with no clear width or distinction.  And once they've been shot a few times it just gets worse.  Ad to this the idea that some targets are placed at angles so "clean" shots are impossible.

As someone who likes to compete I'd much rather go to a shoot with 2d paper animal targets.  Sure eliminates much of this "interpretation" that goes on.  Save the foam for "hunting practice".   

[McDave]

Add to this the idea that some targets are placed at angles so "clean" shots are impossible.

As someone who likes to compete I'd much rather go to a shoot with 2d paper animal targets.  Sure eliminates much of this "interpretation" that goes on.  Save the foam for "hunting practice".   

Irritating to me is that often the “kill” zone of foam targets includes areas where I would hate to hit an animal, and at times my hit is a better kill spot on the animal than the center spot (we call it the 11 ring here, but it has different names in different parts of the country), so I get a lower score than someone who in my opinion made a worse shot.  I don't really care about the lower score, because I’m a long way from being a champion, but it would be nice if the target manufacturers would mark their targets more realistically.

[Alexander Traditional]

I should try one of these shoots out. I could cheat and still do terrible 

[Sam McMichael]

I am in favor of confronting a cheater and eliminating them from the event, or club. However, one point hasn't been mentioned. When confronting this guy, there needs to be solid incontrovertible proof of these wrongdoings. I'm talking about the possibility of law suits. If you smear somebody's name, a court case for libel could be an outcome to consider. No, I'm not an attorney. Still, bad behavior should be confronted. 

As an aside, my opinion of Terry Harris is just the same as stated by Eric Krewson.

[mjh]

Local club always had this one guy come in late Sunday to do the shoot, scores were posted as they were turned in where everyone could see.  Now, I've see this guy shoot and by all accounts he's a pretty good shooter.  But he always seemed to post a winning or near winning score each and every time.   Club decided to stop posting scores publicly that were over a certain amount.  Final posted scores after all cards turned in.  Low and behold, the late comer guy still shot well but he wasn't at the top of the heap anymore.  Now maybe he was just motivated by seeing the high scores, maybe he just couldn't fudge the scores that much, maybe he's just not as good as he used to be, maybe others are better than he is now, maybe he got the message.  I dunno.  People seem happier now.  We've all seen some line cutter shots in foam targets now and then, I let somebody else in the group call 'em if it's my arrows.  On the hunt it's either a good ethical kill or it's not.  You gotta live with both kinds of shooting.

[Islander 19]

Folks, I’m sure we all hear of someone that someone else thinks is cheating.  Well, I am no different.  There is an individual I know that goes to many, many events around the country, I have had many tell me, this person cheats.
Let me say that I personally have never seen nor said this individual cheats, but have heard it more times that I care to remember.
This individual has won at several of these events, including an IBO World Championship.  This individual has also won at my event, the Howard Hill Classic.
Again, let me say that I have never seen this person cheat.
NOW, with all this said, this individual has admitted to a well respected individual in traditional archery circles, that they have at times “FUDGED” on some scores, and of course added, DOESN’T EVERYONE!?
Folks, in my world, FUDGED, is another word for CHEATED!!
Now, when did this take place, what or how many events  and times did this take place, WHO KNOWS!!!  I’m sure this individual didn’t FUDGE to give themselves a lower score, but only to raise their score to place or even win.
I don't know the answers on how we can really stop cheating altogether, but I have always thought if a person has to cheat for a piece of wood or belt buckle, they certainly must have some sort of inferiority complex.
Let me finish by saying I won’t mention this individual’s name, but they, as well as many others, know who they are.
Hopefully, this person will be watched a little closer now.

Terry Harris


I am just a working man but if I am competing in an event and I see somebody cheating bet your ass I will say something to the individual cheating I may get my ass whopped it has happend before and I have  a big mouth I am near deaf so I am naturally loud. I call it like I see it and be dammed the rest of it. If he is cheating you should have said HEY you what are you doing?
Islander