Hill layup schedule help

[Monteria]

Gentlemen, Its good to see a lot of old names still active on here. I doubt that anyone probably recognizes me, but I was active for a time maybe 6 years ago or so. Back then I built a lot of recurves and RD longbows, both youth and adult size. Not that I ever built enough so Kenny's finances hurt when my oven went in storage, but I built enough to keep family and friends well armed. Life though, being what life is, changed direction for me a bit and I have not built a bow since.

Anyway, I hope Y'all don't mind lending your advise to a free loading deserter, because I am about to jump back in to uncharted waters here...

On to it, I guess, the build is for a friend of my wife, Krista. Krista is 5'2"and might weigh 110 with her pockets full of nickles. She is also known to attend every renascence festival in driving distance dawned with full regalia as some kind of sexy mid evil or mythological character, which informs the rather unique objective for this project...

Krista wants me to produce a bow that looks as close as possible to an English long bow, but with the benefits of modern materials and as much performance as I can squeeze from it. She also wants a shelf, so of course a Hill style becomes the base in my mind.

I seem to recall that the general rule for English long bows was that the bow should be as tall as the archer, so that starts us off at 62" Our target weight will be 20# at 25" I intend to keep it slim and delicate with 1" wide limbs at the fade. From the aesthetics point of view, I'd love to make it with 100% Osage or Yew core (assuming I could find Yew lams) with a very short (12"max) riser, and of course clear glass back and belly.

Now here are the problems that I anticipate and hope Y'all might have solutions for.

First, a bow that long with a super short riser, that short a draw and low a draw weight seems destine to be sluggish at best. I'm envisioning this being so whippy that the extra weight of tip wedges might even hurt more than they help. Is my concern here misplaced? If not, how would you address it? Sacrificing aesthetics for performance (IE:shortening) IS an option here, if that will produce the best result.

Osage and Yew, though they would look right also have issues. I don't even know if I could find Yew, but that would make for a deep limb, I think. Too deep for a limb thats 1" at the fades and 1/2" at the tips? I assume the weight of 100% Osage would add to the sluggishness of already long weak limbs? What is a good performing alternative core wood that I could stain to look like a plain stick bow? I'm not 100% against something like boo core with veneers either, so that is an option too.

And of course where ever we land on this in the end I will need help with layup schedule.

So what say you? Is my concern misguided, or what sacrifices need to be made?

Thank you,

Steve



 

[Flem]

Howdy, I'm a big fan of Hill style bows. In fact, thats all I make! So I'm happy to throw in my 2 cents.
All ASl's are sluggish, at least in comparison to those sexy/curvy bows. 62" is short, but if you adjust your build parameters, it should work out good. You could make that riser even shorter than 12". I like a 12" riser on bows as long as 66". ELB's bend into the handle, so a short riser could help facilitate that. At that weight you don't need tip wedges and overlays would only be cosmetic. If you were to do tip embellishments, just use some super lite weight material. A deep core relative to width is what you want in an ASL, especially if you are trying to mimic an ELB. I'm sure you can find Yew lams and they would be the most appropriate for your build, but definitely spendy. You could also use E. Red Cedar, which would look sharp and also help with the "sluggish" factor by reducing overall limb weight. Sounds like a fun project and challenge for you, enjoy!

[KenH]

I agree with Flem.  Use a short riser -- 8" even.  You're not building a "war bow" here!  Eastern Red Cedar would give the Yew look, without adding weight.  Think of Hickory as a "back core"

Just remembered!  I have a single Yew lam that is IIRC .07, and is at least 62" long.  And there's a shorter 3 ft or so length as well.  Drop me a PM with your address...

[monterey]

I'm thinking edge grain elm under that clear glass.

[kennym]

Black locust would be pretty close to yew in color I think.

[Monteria]

Thank you for the replies so far, guys.

The first thing I gather is that my concerns are completely unfounded. Second is shorten the riser. Third is that I apparently have complete misconceptions about what Yew looks like...

Starting at the bottom, I have used both elm and ERC extensively in the past. I have also wanted for years to build a bow with Texas Cedar (Ashe Juniper) lams. I have a bunch of fence post that I cut several years ago, cured and ready to go. It looks a lot like ERC, but not as bright red. I cut one into a 1.5x4" billet yesterday and it looks like it will produce some fine laminations.

KenH, I appreciate the offer and I may take you up on it later, after I have run a test layup. For the first attempt I'll use what I have. If that works out, but consensus is that it looks nothing like Yew, I'll reconsider for attempt #2.

Okay, so now how about layup suggestions based on the following revised parameters?

62", 1"@ fades, 8" riser, 20# @ 25" target weight...

What layup schedule would you suggest? I assume still a .006 total taper? I can grind power lams and tip wedges too, and I'm not afraid to experiment. Dont be shy with guesses, I have several thousand Ashe Juniper to cut down, I'm not loosing anything if we miss the mark.

Thank you,

Steve

[KenH]

To get a real feel for what and English Longbow looked like, do a bit of net surfing on Mary Rose Bow.  These were bows recovered intact from a shipwreck from the time of Henry VIII.  Made from English Yew staves. See how they were cut, with the dark heartwood for the belly and the light outer wood for the back.

So for your bow, you could use heartwood Yew, or Eastern Red Cedar for the belly lam, a,  nd a lighter colored wood lam for the back lam.  Make tip overlays of black dyed wood to look similar to the MaryRose.

[Monteria]

Yep, that's what I thought Yew looked like.

[kennym]

The black locust wasn’t as good a match as I thought , it’s on left and the yew isn’t mine , belongs to a customer...

[Monteria]

I cant get pictures to post... my cedar is not a match either but I normally dispose of it by burning, so there is no harm in experimenting with it. Right now i am leaning toward the following layup.

3x .075 lams with .002" taper, tip wedges, and .040 belly and back for a total stack of .305".

I guess we will figure out where she lands and make some changes for attempt #2.

Steve

[kennym]

Guess there's only one way to find out! 

[Flem]

That Texas Cedar would look good. Looks a lot like our Rocky Mountain Juniper. Makes good lams if you can find some thats straight. I don't think you need that much taper, might get a little whippy, as narrow as you are planning on it being. Ken's idea about ebonizing some lite weight wood for the tips is a good one, although I don't think medieval bowyers were using Water Buffalo horn.

[Monteria]

Thank you for the constructive criticism. I'll turn one of those core lams into a strait taper for .004" total. Should I also eliminate the tip wedge, or keep it? I have lots of Mesquite. It's pretty strong and has good compressive strength for its weight. I can make that almost black with just stain. I can get my hands on Texas ebony too, but I think that's quite a bit heavier?

Steve

[Flem]

The wedge or overlay on a ASL is used mostly as a precaution for FF strings. Personally I find them unnecessary, unless I want a cosmetic enhancement. You are probably not going to use a big enough chunk to be a problem, a Hill style is not going to be a rocket launcher in any configuration.
Sound like it going to be a special bow for somebody, might as well add some bling!
Something else you might consider is an inlay at the arrow pass. A Celtic Rune symbol or something along those lines, would look cool and personalize it for your friend.

[Monteria]

I'm back. It took a while to get to this point. I burned up my thickness grinder, which I use for lams and pretty much everything...

Anyway, Here is where I ended up. First, I changed it to 64" knock to knock, which results almost exactly the owners height when strung. my lams averaged .80", 1 parallel and two .002" taper with .040" clear glass. 1" at fades and 1/2" at the tips when roughed.

The good: The Texas Ashe Juniper, thought thirsty,  turned out fantastic looking. It also seems quite lively. Though only roughed, the cast/tiller looks awesome.

The bad: I have not gotten past roughing and already I am way under weight. ~ #16 at 25"... I probably wont even finish it. Maybe I'll shorten it in hopes of hitting a usable weight before it gets too short for my half pint wife, or a nephew, or someone.

Anyone have any suggestions for hitting 25# @ 25" on attempt #2?

[monterey]

Finish this bow out and determine finished weight.  Then you can calculate the stack for the poundage you want on a second identical bow.

Bjansen is here and he has a calculator that will help you figure it out.

[bjansen]

Yeah, I agree finish that baby out and then we can run some #'s.  I would not be afraid of using a very thin riser (even down to 3/8" or 1/2" thick) and keeping fully intact glass on both the belly and back. That will really retain the ELB look.

[monterey]

Yeah, I agree finish that baby out and then we can run some #'s.  I would not be afraid of using a very thin riser (even down to 3/8" or 1/2" thick) and keeping fully intact glass on both the belly and back. That will really retain the ELB look.

I like the idea of running the lams through.   I did it on one kid bow but still had to glue riser material onto it.

[kennym]

I have a stack of .030x1.5 clear glass that I received by mistake that I need to have a sale on if you or anyone needs some...

[monterey]

Kenny, that sale posted on your site?  BP or???