Fixed Crawl Newbie

[That_MN_Guy]

I tried fixed crawling for the first time today, starting with a crawl that was even with my middle finger. It seemed to bring my point-on into "good enough" territory at 15 yards (I'd ideally be trying to find a point-on for 20) and seems like it has some merit. The issue, and my subsequent question, is that it seemed to make my bow super loud, like a slapping type sound and really have a negative impact on my arrow flight. Is there anything I can do to counter those?

This was my first time trying it and it seems like it has potential if not for that terrible noise and arrow flight! I'm shooting a samick Sage.

[McDave]

If your fixed crawl put your point on at 15 yards, then try about 1/8” less crawl and see if that brings you closer to 20 yards point on.

A fixed crawl changes the tune of the bow.  My bow didn't change as dramatically as you describe with yours, but I did have to slightly raise the nock point of the arrow because using a fixed crawl resulted in nock low bare shaft flight.  Your bow might require a different adjustment, or no adjustment at all, which is something you need to find out for yourself.  Taking less of a fixed crawl to get your point on up to 20 yards will probably help, because there will be less of a change from the normal place you grip the string.

Your noise and erratic arrow flight makes me wonder if you might be having release problems, which could be exacerbated by drawing the bow in a new location?  This is assuming you didn't have the noise and arrow flight issues with a normal draw.

[That_MN_Guy]

I’ll try a shorter crawl and see what happens. Release could be a culprit as I’m pretty new to this whole thing. The slapping sound was the biggest thing I noticed, and it took my arrows from flying straight to flying much slower and noticeably tail left (LH shooter).

[Huntschool]

I am going to suggest its your release as Dave mentioned.  The bows I am currently shooting do not have silencers on them as they are strictly for 3D (If we ever get things really opened up) so I am not worried about sound as much.

That being said, I dont get much sound (remember, unsilenced bow) from any of the bows I am shooting and I am shooting some low GPP arrows.  There is the expected "twang" that you get from an unsilenced bow but thats about it. One bow is a very high performance 3 piece LB and the other is a high performance 2 piece LB.

I would suggest you check for your point on at 20 yards and then just start really working on your form (release) at almost blind bale distance and see what happens.  Be sure and use your back muscles and try for as clean a release as you can and really try to not "pluck" the string at release.

You did not mention if you are using a glove or a tab....  just for my interest.  I would also remind you that "crawl" or string walking is not allowed in most traditional classes in 3D competition if that is of any interest to you.

[That_MN_Guy]

2/2 on the release. I guess I didn’t realize that could be the problem. Is it something that changing the drawing point would magnify? Like I said things are smooth and quiet when I snug up under the nock.

Either way, I’ll definitely take that advice and really focus on getting that dialed smooth.

I’m shooting a Neet glove right now but plan to get a tab in the near future to see which I like better. I’m looking at hunting strictly and don’t have any plans to shoot competitively.

[McDave]

I don’t know if it’s the release.  All I know is that usually a fixed crawl requires some minor adjustment of tuning, which could honestly be ignored without much ill effect.  So because your experience is out of the norm, we look elsewhere for answers.  The irregular arrow flight is more concerning than the noise.  3 under is a noisy way to shoot, at least compared with split, and adding a fixed crawl is noisier than a regular string grip.  But it should be a small increase in noise, not wow! that’s a lot noisier increase in noise.  A poor release can cause more noise than expected, and also poor arrow flight.

After many years of mostly mediocre shooting, but trying really hard, I can still go out on the range and start plucking without even knowing it.  The only way I know it is that my arrows are impacting right, and I know I’m not creeping.  I creep too, occasionally, but I don’t have to look at the target to know when I creep.  I’m not talking major, wave your hand at the crowd plucking where the arrow ends up off the target.  I’m talking a slight delay in relaxing my fingers so my fingertips catch a little bit of the string, just enough to throw the arrow off course so it lands 6” or so to the right.  I can’t force my fingers to relax any faster, but I do know what it feels like when they relax when they should, and how to achieve that by focusing more on my back tension.

The whole point of this was not to give you a lesson in not plucking, but was to illustrate that even though I should know better, I can still slip into plucking even when I’m doing everything the same way I always do.  So yes, if you change things, like adding a fixed crawl, it can give you a few things to work on that you might not expect.

[That_MN_Guy]

Understood McDave and thanks for the reply. I just tried shooting split for the first time to see if I heard a difference and holy crap, it's whisper quiet compared to 3 under! I also noticed that the draw is way smoother to anchor too, but not sure why that is. Not that it helps with fixed crawl, but I might have to give split an honest shot to see if I like that better!

Clearly a new trad guy here just figuring out what works for me. Thanks everyone for the responses.

[Captain*Kirk]

Are you utilizing the "deep hook" when shooting fixed crawl? I noticed when I fooled around with FC and stringwalking a bit (went back to split; I just don't feel comfortable with either style) that after counting threads with my fingertips I would sometimes forget to utilize the deep hook. Also, depending on how your bow is tillered, it could become noisier, especially without string silencers. Some folks I shoot with ended up having to move their silencers to a different spot on the string as well. Not sure why.

[That_MN_Guy]

Are you utilizing the "deep hook" when shooting fixed crawl? I noticed when I fooled around with FC and stringwalking a bit (went back to split; I just don't feel comfortable with either style) that after counting threads with my fingertips I would sometimes forget to utilize the deep hook. Also, depending on how your bow is tillered, it could become noisier, especially without string silencers. Some folks I shoot with ended up having to move their silencers to a different spot on the string as well. Not sure why.

To the best of my knowledge I am deep-hooking. I've got around 100 arrows through today (thanks COVID!) and I'm really really liking split finger. Is gapping or true instinctive about my only options when shooting split?

[Captain*Kirk]

Are you utilizing the "deep hook" when shooting fixed crawl? I noticed when I fooled around with FC and stringwalking a bit (went back to split; I just don't feel comfortable with either style) that after counting threads with my fingertips I would sometimes forget to utilize the deep hook. Also, depending on how your bow is tillered, it could become noisier, especially without string silencers. Some folks I shoot with ended up having to move their silencers to a different spot on the string as well. Not sure why.

To the best of my knowledge I am deep-hooking. I've got around 100 arrows through today (thanks COVID!) and I'm really really liking split finger. Is gapping or true instinctive about my only options when shooting split?

Those are the only two I'm aware of.
I started out trying to shoot instinctive but was all over the map. Being right handed and left eye dominant, I switched to gapping (closing my dominant eye) and did very well with it in a backyard setting. Problem was, hunting in the field did not allow for accurate distances and after bungling a few "gimme" shots I decided to go back and master instinctive. "Master it", I didn't...but I eventually got good enough that I could put them in a kill zone at under 25 yards. So if I miss now, it's all on me. Gapping involves seeing multiples; the target, the arrow point, and for some, the bow sight window as well. If your target is stationary and you are at a known distance, it's pretty easy to put multiple arrows in the same spot. When in the field with moving targets at unknown distances, even being a few inches off can mean the difference between a kill shot and wounded game. Something to think about.

[ThePushArchery]

Its a matter of limb timing coming back to brace. The noise is coming from the limbs arriving at brace out of time with eachother.

So imagine that you've tuned your bow perfectly and you're shooting 3 under against the nock. The bow is quiet and isn't growling at you. This means (assuming we are talking a non-ILF bow here) that the limbs are coming back to brace in time with each other when they are drawn and released from that position on the string. (i.e. Even tiller for 3 under, slightly positive tiller for split finger)

If you move your fingers down the string, you're now pulling the lower limb further back than the top limb, and limb timing coming into brace is now affected.

So if a bow is growling at you too much when sliding down the string, I like to suggest keeping your fingers really close to where they were when shooting 3Under. This will ensure proper limb timing. Then simply raise your nock height to create the same effect as crawling your fingers down. If your bow is sensitive to limb timing, you'll have much better results keeping your fingers near that sweet spot and increasing you nock height to .75" high.

This will give you the gaps and sight picture you desire, while keeping the limb timing in that sweet spot.

[That_MN_Guy]

Its a matter of limb timing coming back to brace. The noise is coming from the limbs arriving at brace out of time with eachother.

So imagine that you've tuned your bow perfectly and you're shooting 3 under against the nock. The bow is quiet and isn't growling at you. This means (assuming we are talking a non-ILF bow here) that the limbs are coming back to brace in time with each other when they are drawn and released from that position on the string. (i.e. Even tiller for 3 under, slightly positive tiller for split finger)

If you move your fingers down the string, you're now pulling the lower limb further back than the top limb, and limb timing coming into brace is now affected.

So if a bow is growling at you too much when sliding down the string, I like to suggest keeping your fingers really close to where they were when shooting 3Under. This will ensure proper limb timing. Then simply raise your nock height to create the same effect as crawling your fingers down. If your bow is sensitive to limb timing, you'll have much better results keeping your fingers near that sweet spot and increasing you nock height to .75" high.

This will give you the gaps and sight picture you desire, while keeping the limb timing in that sweet spot.

This is great advice, thanks! I am shooting a Samick Sage with the bolts screwed all the way down so honestly not sure what my tiller is, but the movement of the nock point up to keep the tension the same on both limbs makes absolute sense to me. Appreciate you breaking it down for the new guy. 

[ThePushArchery]

Its a matter of limb timing coming back to brace. The noise is coming from the limbs arriving at brace out of time with eachother.

So imagine that you've tuned your bow perfectly and you're shooting 3 under against the nock. The bow is quiet and isn't growling at you. This means (assuming we are talking a non-ILF bow here) that the limbs are coming back to brace in time with each other when they are drawn and released from that position on the string. (i.e. Even tiller for 3 under, slightly positive tiller for split finger)

If you move your fingers down the string, you're now pulling the lower limb further back than the top limb, and limb timing coming into brace is now affected.

So if a bow is growling at you too much when sliding down the string, I like to suggest keeping your fingers really close to where they were when shooting 3Under. This will ensure proper limb timing. Then simply raise your nock height to create the same effect as crawling your fingers down. If your bow is sensitive to limb timing, you'll have much better results keeping your fingers near that sweet spot and increasing you nock height to .75" high.

This will give you the gaps and sight picture you desire, while keeping the limb timing in that sweet spot.

This is great advice, thanks! I am shooting a Samick Sage with the bolts screwed all the way down so honestly not sure what my tiller is, but the movement of the nock point up to keep the tension the same on both limbs makes absolute sense to me. Appreciate you breaking it down for the new guy.

No problem! Its honestly not that cut and dry, but if you start thinking of it that way, you'll probably need to split the difference between what you're currently doing and the just bumping the nock point up method to get a good gap / point on and a reasonable noise level.

Things start getting wonky when you get above 1"nock height. But I'd be lying if I said i didn't run a bow above 1" with success

[McDave]

“I am shooting a Samick Sage with the bolts screwed all the way down so honestly not sure what my tiller is.”

This statement puzzles me.  To my knowledge, the Samick Sage does not have an adjustable tiller, so the bolts would always be screwed all the way down in order to fasten the limbs on correctly.  So the tiller on your bow would always be the same: the difference between the distance from your string to the limb at the top of the riser and the distance from your string to the limb at the bottom of the riser.  Am I missing something here?

[That_MN_Guy]

Probably not McDave. I’ve just read that some people will not screw the bolts in all the way to adjust, but that doesn’t make any sense to me and seems to mess with the limb integrity. I guess I meant I’ve never measured it.

[McDave]

Just cinch the limb bolts down until they are snug (but not overtight). Then get a bow square and attach it to the string. If the bow square has two stops, push it all the way in on both sides. Move the bow square on the string until the ruler intersects the limb where it joins the riser. Give us the two measurements (top and bottom) where it intersects the limb and the riser.  Not that this will mean much at this point, but it is useful to know how to measure tiller.

[That_MN_Guy]

Just cinch the limb bolts down until they are snug (but not overtight). Then get a bow square and attach it to the string. If the bow square has two stops, push it all the way in on both sides. Move the bow square on the string until the ruler intersects the limb where it joins the riser. Give us the two measurements (top and bottom) where it intersects the limb and the riser.  Not that this will mean much at this point, but it is useful to know how to measure tiller.

Thanks. Bolts are right on both limbs but I didn’t “wrench” them down. I’m at 6 5/8 on the bottom limb and 6 7/8 on the top. Brace height is about 7 1/4.

[McDave]

So that means you have a positive tiller of 3/8”, which is in the normal range.  Probably should increase your brace height to about 7 3/4”, by twisting the string in the same direction it is already twisted, or in either direction if it is not twisted yet.  Check it from time to time, since new strings tend to stretch with use.

[That_MN_Guy]

So that means you have a positive tiller of 3/8”, which is in the normal range.  Probably should increase your brace height to about 7 3/4”, by twisting the string in the same direction it is already twisted, or in either direction if it is not twisted yet.  Check it from time to time, since new strings tend to stretch with use.

Ok, so positive tiller is when the top is larger than the bottom. Adding that to my mental glossary of terms.

Funny, after measuring I already added some twists to bring myself up to about 7 3/4. The string definitely stretched a little bit from when I last checked, which makes sense as I've been doing a bunch of shooting lately.

[Captain*Kirk]

If you are using the stock string that comes with the Sage, it will stretch to the point that it's almost unusable. Most Sage shooters prefer a Flemish twist Fast Flight, which not only gives you more speed, but (in my case) also didn't stretch near as much.