I modified my grip now I'm in trouble!

[snowplow]

Guys I need your help, I'm kinda freaked out.

I modified the grip on my Predator just the other day. I added not really any angle but lots of palm swell and a thumb ramp. Now for the first time I can shoot this thing with what feels like zero forearm/hand imput. IT FEELS SWEET.

BUT

Now my bareshafts show really weak. Specifically I am showing nock high left and I cant figure it out. I have cut down my arrow about 1.5" and still show weak!

Here are some other things to consider

As I cut the arrow down it did move in the right direction, so although extreme it does seem like I'm getting there.
I did ad maybe 1/8" no more to the throat of the grip. So I played with my brace height and re-adjusted.
I think it makes sense that I am drawing further, and it feels like I am getting further into the bow. So I guess weak makes sense.
I have played with my release, nock height, and even crawled to see if it was weird imput from my draw hand. No change.
I have tried to change grip torque and hold to see if it was grip imput and no change.
This is a 60# Predator drawn to 29" that shot 300 axis bareshafts perfect to 40 yards before this (200gr head).

So if your are still reading (thank you) I am wondering if a nock left situation is indicative of having the left side of the grip (right hand bow) too proud or anything like that. Even though the torque test showed no results and general feel feels excellent, could my grip be forcing a torque on the bow?

My 300 is about as short as I can go at this time. I do have some 260 spine axis shafts that I could start cutting down but before I did I just wanted to see what you guys thought. Hopefully I am missing something obvious.

I suppose if the 260 still show stiff it is obvious that it is a torque not spine issue. So then I start shaving on the grip again 

[Pine]

Try intentionally putting more pressure on the web of your hand.
Almost lifting the ball of your thumb off the grip.
I had this problem with one of my bows years back and that was the problem.
Also why I changed my bows to a low grip. Problem gone for me.
Just an idea to try.

[Huntschool]

I have to wonder.... if your grip is misleading you.  Go back to the lowere weight BH and see what happens. 

Just a thought

[snowplow]

I have to wonder.... if your grip is misleading you.  Go back to the lowere weight BH and see what happens. 

Just a thought

Sorry, are you saying lower the brace height to the originalish spec?

Currently I have it on the highest end which now is even higher than originally with the idea that as I cut down arrows and make them stiffer if I go a touch too far I could soften them back up by lowering my brace. Just FYI 

 

[snowplow]

Is there a rule of thumb or anything that heel pressure makes you shoot nock low, thumb side pressure makes you shoot nock right, pinky side palm pressure makes you shoot nock left or anything like that?

Or here's another question. If I have purposefully induces torque in every way I can think of with my bow hand and it essentially doesnt change my nock high left condition, can we conclude that my new grip is not the issue?

I just need to know if I can finish this grip off or if I still need to modify it 

[mec lineman]

Snowplow, this has been my findings. While fat,full palm swell grips feel like a glove, for me so much hand contact leads me to torque.  I think that is why narrow, thin grips are commonly found on target risers. For me I have to make very minimum contact with grip on recurves

[Matt Green]

EASY fix:  If the arrow show weak, after you've adjusted other things, add silencers to the string - it will "slow the string down" (depending on how much you add) and your bare shafts will respond as well.  I have, in the past, found the "sweet spot of a bow (re: brace height), add tip weight to a shaft until i GET IT slightly weak. Then add MORE silencer than you think you need (i usually do the 1/4 on top 1/3 distance on bottom b/c of dampening). Once you add MORE silencer than you need, you trim it or pluck it out a bit at a time until you have straight bare shafts. One thing, some like to have ever so slightly weak bare shafts b/c of a) better clearance of riser and b) when the wt of feathers is added to the rear of the arrow that can slightly stiffen. i tend to think little if any changes from adding the 15g of wt from feathers as it just takes a LOT to change a carbon arrow and 15 grains is not likely to make a large difference.  YES - adding silencers as a tuning aid will cost you a few feet per second but the gains you get from a well tuned arrow far outweigh a couple feet per second.  One other thing, if you use cat whiskers, you can slide these up and down the string and assess noise and tune.  Good luck and remember, the tinkering is a part of the fun.   

[Huntschool]

[/quote]Sorry, are you saying lower the brace height to the original spec?

Currently I have it on the highest end which now is even higher than originally with the idea that as I cut down arrows and make them stiffer if I go a touch too far I could soften them back up by lowering my brace. Just FYI [/quote]

No, I am saying go back to the lighter broadhead.

[snowplow]

Sorry, are you saying lower the brace height to the original spec?

Currently I have it on the highest end which now is even higher than originally with the idea that as I cut down arrows and make them stiffer if I go a touch too far I could soften them back up by lowering my brace. Just FYI [/quote]

No, I am saying go back to the lighter broadhead.
[/quote]

Gotcha, that makes sense. Before I play with a 240 spine I'll take off the 200 gr point on the 300 spine and throw on a 100 and I sure would think I should definitely see it show stiff. If it doesn't it has to be the grip I would think. 

[Friend]

As you increase the brace height, you weaken the shaft's response

As you decrease the brace height, you stiffen the shaft's response

[Petrichor]

As you increase the brace height, you weaken the shaft's response

As you decrease the brace height, you stiffen the shaft's response

This!

[nineworlds9]

Yup you increased your DL slightly, causing the weak condition.  Cutting carbons, even by a little can change the spine alot. Id def work with the other parameters including building out the strike plate a little before I started cutting and save that for last.

[snowplow]

Cutting carbons, even by a little can change the spine alot.

I'm with you, that's the only reason I posted up really. I know things changed but I cant get it through my head how I have cut off 1.5" of arrow and still show weak!? That doesn't seem right to me.

[Huntschool]

Sending you a PM

[snowplow]

So I got a 260 spine cut down really short with a 100 gr point and still no change. Sounds like it's obviously torque from my grip. My gut says I made the left side of the palm too proud and I'm having too much pressure there. Or something. Hell I don't know. Time to get the file...

[moebow]

Frankly, I think you have modified that grip too much and maybe in the wrong places.  You have added a palm swell, and a thumb ledge.  Both of those things have now added inadvertent pressure from your hand that is perpendicular to the grip.  That causes pressure in the grip that is not in line with where you want the arrow to go.  With a good grip with your hand there should ideally be no pressure on the grip other than in line with the target, never side to side.  IF, with your modification, you now feel like you have a hand filling bow grip, you MAY have taken the modification too far.  I also don't believe that you have changed your draw length so much that you have to go from 300 spine to 260!! Those are up in the 90 to 100# range.

You give no bow specifications such as draw weight, draw length, etc., but I'm betting it is NOT arrow spine.  There is something going on with the bow grip OR your bow hand grip technique that causing the left/right problem.

[Petrichor]

In my experience when crazy unexplainable things happen brace height has been the culprit. Increasing like one of your previous posts said will weaken the arrows (seems counter intuitive) before you file. I would lower the brace height down to a quarter inch below what it was before you modified the grip again and shoot your original arrow setup. It’s a long shot but hey good to try everything before filing. Otherwise perhaps the mod was too much.

[Kelly]

Wow, you added a lot to your grip and shelf. It looks to me like the shelf was raised in the process and with that large flat surface from throat down thru heal you really shouldn’t be grabbing this bow. My guess is you are torqueing the bow causing the different bare shaft results. Also, if the shelf was raised in this process of adding material to grip you have also changed the tiller.

[snowplow]

Yep its certainly not a spine issue at this point. And the shelf has not been touched. I agree it has to be the grip at this point. I'll start shaving on it starting on the sides. That's a great explanation moebow  And for the record, I epoxied over painters tape so this is not permanent at this point.

Question- are thumb ramps always bad? Certainly most bows don't have them but plenty still do. Just curious because I like the feel of them.

[moebow]

IMO thumb ramps are not good.  You want that thumb laying relaxed on the side of the bow AND the palm of the hand.  Really, any side of the bow grip touching can be a problem.  Also, that really side flat on the back of the grip will induce torque too.  The less side to side pressure, the better. Again, IMO.
Arne