Advice please

[Terry Green]

Sorry, what is an exo?

Huh????... thought you said you worked with infectious disease.  Did I miss something?  Certainly could be, I've missed things before.

[madmaxthc]

Hi, Rob,

I am glad to hear you recovered.

Those are all good questions, but my lunch break was over some time ago 

I will come back tonight and answer your questions.
Terry, I think I understand now you were referring to an exosome, correct?

I'll talk with you tonight.

Have a nice day,
Max

[madmaxthc]

OK, I’m back.

To start with, please consider that here we cannot hear our tone of voice, nor see each other’s facial expression, so I hope we can reason together even if we disagree. I never meant to attack any member.

Also, I would like to go back to one of my previous statements: “it is bad, and it might possibly be getting worse”. Looking back at the data from the last few days, the cases might have started going down, but I would wait a bit longer before being sure. The situation is still bad. This is of course at national level; the situation varies from state to state.

Now let’s answer to Terry’s and Rob’s comments.

[madmaxthc]

Part 1:
Exosomes are produced by our cells machinery for a variety of reasons. Viruses, which do not have their own machinery, hijack the cells to replicate and make more virus. So yes, viral particles and exosomes look similar, and some viruses even leave the cells through the exosomes, to go and infect new ones. However, we can analyze what proteins and genetic material is in the particles. We can analyze the genetic material in what “may look like an exosome” and verify that is not human.
Let me make a step back, bear with me, even if I might be saying things you already know:
Humans, parasites, viruses, bacteria, they all have genomes, which are made of nucleotides. Nucleotides are basically the letters with which the genome is written. The genome is the manual of how to make an organism, and is in each of our cells. Our genome tells the cells where you should grow hair, muscles or bones, and how to make them. It tells your organism to make you blonde or dark, male or female. Segments of the genome can be called “sequences”.

PCR and sequencing allow to check what kind of genomic material we are dealing with. If we are sequencing or PCRing a tumor, it can tell what kind of errors are in the manual, and therefore how bad the tumor is. If we sequence a virus, we can tell what virus that is.
I am not sure where the statement that the coronavirus has never been sequenced, or that PCR is not an adequate tool comes from.

One of the strengths of science is that no matter how famous of a scientist you are, if you make an unsubstantiated claim, the scientific community will race to prove you wrong. The virus has been sequenced independently all over the world, and so has the human genome. You can get those sequences from public databases, and compare them to other viruses, and to human DNA.  Think about it, how would coordinate a conspiracy involving scientists from independent groups, often in competition with each other, from the whole planet?
I hear some say the disease is caused by some kind of toxin. What kind of toxin? How would the toxin spread from person to person worldwide? What I mean is: let’s say I have the disease, and I have 10 toxin particles. I spread 9 of them to other people? How do other people spread them to the next one? They would need somehow to replicate. How would they?

[madmaxthc]

Part 2: How does PCR (polymerase chain reaction) work? How can it find “the needle in the haystack?”
The PCR works thanks to short fragments called “primers”, which attach specifically to certain sequences. If you know your target sequence, you can use primers which are specific to the sequence you are looking for. Then a protein, called polymerase, replicates the target sequence in your sample, til there’s enough of it that the results can be read by a machine, depending on what kind of PCR you are using, e.g. RT-PCR.
Now, how can you look for an unknown pathogen? A solution is sequencing. Put enough random primers in your sample, one of them will hit the mark. Of course you will end up replicating all sorts of sequences, including the ones from the human. After that, you will have to look at all the sequences that are in there, and find the ones that are not human. What do they look like? If they are viral sequences, you have found a new virus. If they are bacterial, you have found a new bacterium. It’s a lot of work.
One of the advantages of sequencing is that allows us to discover microorganisms which we are not yet able to culture, or for which there are technical obstacles to keep in laboratory animals. This was not possible in Koch’s time, but science and human knowledge keep advancing. Also, we know now that some people can be asymptomatic carriers of a disease. Yours was a great observation regarding Koch’s postulates.

OK, this is what I’ve got for now. I look forward to your observations, and hopefully other members will chip in. Also, there are probably other TradGangers who work in biology, I look forward to their comments.

Best,
Max

[Rob DiStefano]

dr. andrew kaufman is an MIT graduate in molecular biology, among his other medical credentials. 

an excerpt from a video conversation ...

[GCook]

Ronnie I met with my doctor for my annual physical the other day and I discussed this at length with her. 
I plan to go to Missouri in November as usual.  She advised that I go only if I had no symptoms, am fever free for at least a week before travel and that if possible I avoid anyone there with symptoms just as I should here at home.  She gave me significantly more information about the virus and this misinformation I needed to ignore but I'll leave that for a private conversation if you'd like.
Go.  Hunt.  Live life to it's fullest.  Invite a friend to share the experience.

[madmaxthc]

OK, I believe my previous explanations on sequencing address most of the issues in the video.

While the original sequencing was done as I mentioned, by sequencing everything (defined as whole transcriptome sequencing), the virus has been isolated and sequenced multiple times ever since. The cell cultures are even available from the CDC. Still, Dr. Kaufman does not explain how the same virus is found again and again worldwide, when there was no trace of it prior to December 2019. Regarding the testing, no test is perfect, and molecular biologists constantly work to improve them.

Regarding the “hypothetical genome model” and “gaps filled in automatic from the database”: just no. That it is not how it works, that is not how we do it. If there are gaps, they are left in there, till we can fill them through additional experiments. And you can find very often sequences with gaps in online databases for many microorganisms; they are just parts we have not defined yet, and we do not hide it.

Looking more closely at Dr. Kaufman credentials, from his website, he is a psychiatrist.  He has no peer-reviewed research work in virology.
To explain a bit better why this is important:
as an example: if I have to review a peer-reviewed scientific article in immunology, a closely-related field (not a similar one) to mine, I might have to study it full time for a week. And even then, I might not have the ability to review it critically as much as an immunologist would. That is how specialized science has become nowadays, and necessarily so. That is why research groups staff have diverse expertise.

I appreciate reasoning with people like you, Rob and Terry. You try to expand your knowledge and are not satisfied with a simplified explanation. That is honorable. That is commendable.
What discourages me is people like Dr. Kaufman, who use their degree to spread false information. He is a psychiatrist with no experience in virology research, yet he spreads his hypotheses for which he has no scientific evidence. Not a single experiment, nor a scientific publication to back his claims.

You can find my publications in infectious diseases here:

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/?term=Tagliamonte+MS&cauthor_id=31588431
 
Not a wide curriculum (yet), but I’m working on it. Nights and weekends included. Currently working on the coronavirus as well. While Dr. Kaufman plays his fantasies on youtube. It upsets me, as his actions might lead people to get sick and possibly die.

One thing I would suggest, do not limit your search only to sources which agree with you. Explore the ones which do not agree with your opinions. Look at your ideas, and try to pry open the weak points. If some parts of the idea does not make sense, either the idea is wrong, or you have yet to find the proper explanation for them. Either could be.

Wish you luck in your search for truth.

Best,
Max

[Terry Green]

Madmax.... food for thought. Thanks.

Lots of talk about cases on the news,... a lot of them are false. Not much about talk about death rates cause the low rate doesn't fit the narrative, even though lots of those numbers are false as well.  I personally know about those two as to be true on more than one instance. As, well as the cdc employee stating the news is cherry picking.

The odds are that me, my wife and daughters,  based on health history, are more likely to die of a car wreck by far.  So, we aren't going to stop driving or living.... but, we are not being wreckless about it either.

Everyone has to make that decision on their own whether they go and do, or not.  No one else should make that decision for you.

Good morning from not so sunny Florida at the moment. Gotta run.... taking the girls kayaking this morning.

[Rob DiStefano]

all of this points to the real problem - extremely complex issues that very few humans can barely understand. 

this means than 99.9999999% of all humans will have to choose who to believe, who to have faith in. 

the scientific medical industry has become the new god, and there are lots of religions surrounding this new, never before seen god. 

choose wisely, your life and the lives of others are on the line, and not just for medical issues.

[Bowguy67]

Last two posts were good ones

[madmaxthc]

Madmax.... food for thought. Thanks.

...

So, we aren't going to stop driving or living.... but, we are not being wreckless about it either.

Everyone has to make that decision on their own whether they go and do, or not.  No one else should make that decision for you.

Good morning from not so sunny Florida at the moment. Gotta run.... taking the girls kayaking this morning.

You’re welcome, Terry. You’re right that there is a lot of misinformation around, and even scientists will have a clearer view as additional research emerges. You are right that we should not stop living. Zero % risk does not belong to this world; however, try to play it safe and minimize the risks. That we can do.
I wish you to enjoy the day with your family 👍

all of this points to the real problem - extremely complex issues that very few humans can barely understand.

this means than 99.9999999% of all humans will have to choose who to believe, who to have faith in.

the scientific medical industry has become the new god, and there are lots of religions surrounding this new, never before seen god.

That is a very good point, Rob. It made me think. I am not able to make a broadhead, but I am able to judge which ones are more likely to work with my bow. And if I get it wrong, next time I can buy from someone else. If I step into a plane though, I have no idea how to drive it, nor why anything works the way it does. I’ll have to sit still and trust the pilot. That lack of control is scary.
It is certainly true that the medical industry moves huge amount of money, and that is dangerous. Making sure the consumer is protected is certainly a challenge our generation and ones to come will have to face.

choose wisely, your life and the lives of others are on the line, and not just for medical issues.

On that we agree


Thank you both for allowing this exchange. May the next one be about bow and arrows  👍

Best,
Max

[Terry Green]

Yeah Max... and the number of malpractice deaths should cause us to ban doctors..... 😁

Take care guys... anyone interested in a hunt early next year, check out the Laredo thread.

[Rob DiStefano]

.... What discourages me is people like Dr. Kaufman, who use their degree to spread false information. He is a psychiatrist with no experience in virology research, yet he spreads his hypotheses for which he has no scientific evidence. Not a single experiment, nor a scientific publication to back his claims. ...

... While Dr. Kaufman plays his fantasies on youtube. It upsets me, as his actions might lead people to get sick and possibly die. ...

i hesitated to reply to your post but your attack on dr. kaufman is egregious and if anything, not in keeping with trad gang policy.  you and i are most certainly allowed our opinions and the right to say yay or nay, but there is no need to poke sticks with slanderous comments such as what you typed in your above quote.  if anyone did the same to you, they would be at fault as well.     

i would suggest that you spend a lot more time investigating the credentials of dr. kaufman.  he is more than well qualified in understanding the pathology of infectious disease.  he has outlined his assertions with vetted documentation.  if you disagree, the onus is on you to proof his beliefs as false, not dismiss or diminish his person.     

this is not the venue for further discussion.  PM or email me if necessary.

[old_goat2]

Just be smart, not much more worry going there than going to the gas station or grocery store where you're at,

[Russ Clagett]

Go hunt. By all means live your life sir.

At any point in time, with or without the current virus, we are all walking around with a 50/50 chance that we may not see a tomorrow. Even a microbe can take us out at any time.

If you are healthy, go hunt and enjoy!

Just my 2.

[madmaxthc]

Yeah Max... and the number of malpractice deaths should cause us to ban doctors..... 😁

Take care guys... anyone interested in a hunt early next year, check out the Laredo thread.

LOL, Terry 😅

I will check the Laredo post, I wouldn't mind to meet with TradGang memebers for a hunt.

Rob:

Thank you for your comment. I tried to weight my words, but I must admit frustration took its toll. I sent you a PM.

Take care you all.
Max

[Rob DiStefano]

Rob:

Thank you for your comment. I tried to weight my words, but I must admit frustration took its toll. I sent you a PM.

Take care you all.
Max

thank you for your reply and understanding.

r.

[MattfromVT]

I really appreciate how thoughtful and respectful this thread was. A similar thread on another archery forum devolved pretty quickly into hundreds of "you're a sheep" vs "no you're an idiot" type comments with no real information or discussion.