Author Topic: Question for any Engineers or Materials Scientists out there  (Read 15104 times)

Offline Flem

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Re: Question for any Engineers or Materials Scientists out there
« Reply #60 on: January 13, 2021, 03:26:59 PM »
wasting time?
you got nuffin else to do :tongue: :laughing:

No comment

Long as yer having fun Flem, that's all that matters.

I don't have the attention span to do many things thats are not fun

Online Roy from Pa

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Re: Question for any Engineers or Materials Scientists out there
« Reply #61 on: January 13, 2021, 03:46:29 PM »
I'm aware of your short span:)

Offline Mad Max

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Re: Question for any Engineers or Materials Scientists out there
« Reply #62 on: January 13, 2021, 04:26:21 PM »
No comment

 :laughing: ;)
I would rather fail at something above my means, than to succeed at something  beneath my means  
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Offline avcase

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Re: Question for any Engineers or Materials Scientists out there
« Reply #63 on: January 13, 2021, 05:39:32 PM »

Alan,

A while back you told me that fibreglass stores energy better than carbon does. If that is correct, what do you gain by using carbon in your flight bows? Is this just a weight issue or something else? It's not like we approach the material limits of either in a hand drawn bow.

Hopefully this is just a continuation of OP's desire to try carbon lams as an upgrade and not a hijack...

Mark

Mark,
Unidirectional glass stores more energy in bending for a given weight of material than unidirectional carbon fiber.  This is because glass can take much higher strain in bending than carbon. Unidirectional carbon is much stiffer, but cannot handle as much deformation. This is especially true in compression. 

Unidirectional carbon is superior to glass as a structural material, where it isn’t subjected to large amounts of bending.  Unidirectional carbon also works pretty well as a backing in long limbed bow designs because it still has pretty decent tensile strength.

I do design my flight bows to take full advantage of glass. This is helped by the freedom to use high draw weight and short draw length designs. Heavy weight crossbow limbs and compound bow limbs are other good examples where glass can be used to its true potential. In contrast, it is much harder to take full advantage of the properties of glass in bows that require relatively low draw weight and long draw lengths (typical of most target and hunting bows).

Alan

Offline avcase

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Re: Question for any Engineers or Materials Scientists out there
« Reply #64 on: January 13, 2021, 05:42:13 PM »
And besides, I have had a generous offer to have my composite tested by a University testing lab manager!  Now I'm going to have to get off my a$$ and actually make this material.

Great!  I look forward to the find out how it turns out for you.

Online Longcruise

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Re: Question for any Engineers or Materials Scientists out there
« Reply #65 on: January 13, 2021, 05:49:53 PM »
@Flem

Quote
Just for the back, I've got something else in mind for the belly. 

I'm interested in this aspect.  I think it is more important to an ASL design than some others. 
"Every man is the creature of the age in which he lives;  very few are able to raise themselves above the ideas of the time"     Voltaire

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Re: Question for any Engineers or Materials Scientists out there
« Reply #66 on: January 13, 2021, 08:12:13 PM »
I agree with Roy...  As long as you are having fun...  Now git'er done...

   Take us with a grain of salt Flem...  You know us men, we like to give advice and offer our opinions whether you like it or not...    ;) :)
« Last Edit: January 13, 2021, 08:35:51 PM by Shredd »

Online Roy from Pa

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Re: Question for any Engineers or Materials Scientists out there
« Reply #67 on: January 13, 2021, 08:38:50 PM »
Flem, how bout me and Shredd come out for a week and help ya?

Online onetone

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Re: Question for any Engineers or Materials Scientists out there
« Reply #68 on: January 13, 2021, 10:09:41 PM »
AVCase: It seems to me that both glass and carbon fibers are only marginally flexible, compressible or elastic. So is true that the matrix binding such fibers, like epoxy, is where the stretching, compressing and recovery happens? Would appreciate hearing your work thoughts.

Offline Flem

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Re: Question for any Engineers or Materials Scientists out there
« Reply #69 on: January 14, 2021, 12:33:21 AM »
@Flem

Quote
Just for the back, I've got something else in mind for the belly. 

I'm interested in this aspect.  I think it is more important to an ASL design than some others. 

Figured I was not the only one thinking about this. I'm just going to throw this out and see what you all think. So I'm thinking the laminate we put on the belly side is not optimal. We use a laminate that was obviously designed to placed on the bow's back. It's reinforced with unidirectional fibers that have one purpose. So why do we use the same laminate on the belly? Why not use a laminate designed to resist the  compressive forces. I have been planning on doing some experimenting with epoxy and hollow glass microspheres. 3M makes some with 27,000psi crush strength. The epoxy I will use is 26,000psi. The density of the microspheres is 0.6 g/cc, the epoxy is 1.1 g/cc. Big potential for weight savings for no loss in strength. Plus I have been reading documents on testing of various composites and the addition of hollow glass microspheres has been shown to increase the modulus of resistance, so the theoretical laminate should be able to absorb and release more energy. I still need to do a bit more research to confirm and would like to see MOResistance specs for epoxy. I am still debating whether or not to add a .002 biaxial layer of glass for a bit more structural integrity and if the addition of more elastic epoxy is necessary, also the percentage of HGM to use in the matrix. I'd like to hear anybody's ideas, just remember I'm trying to move this idea forward, not stalling out or going backwards.

Online onetone

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Re: Question for any Engineers or Materials Scientists out there
« Reply #70 on: January 14, 2021, 01:23:56 AM »
Very interesting ideas re belly lams. Certainly applied in Asiatic composite bows with differences in physical characteristics between sinew backing and horn belly lams being extreme. I have wondered about using .04 or .05 G10 as belly lam paired with uni glass or carbon on the back.

Offline williwaw

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Re: Question for any Engineers or Materials Scientists out there
« Reply #71 on: January 14, 2021, 01:28:43 AM »

Hi Flem
cooking your own belly stuff. nice!
Quote
I have been reading documents on testing of various composites and the addition of hollow glass microspheres has been shown to increase the modulus of resistance


Are these documents something you could link to online? I'm not familiar with a resistance modulus. Probably shouldn't comment before reading up some.

« Last Edit: January 14, 2021, 01:43:43 AM by williwaw »

Offline avcase

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Re: Question for any Engineers or Materials Scientists out there
« Reply #72 on: January 14, 2021, 01:52:14 AM »
AVCase: It seems to me that both glass and carbon fibers are only marginally flexible, compressible or elastic. So is true that the matrix binding such fibers, like epoxy, is where the stretching, compressing and recovery happens? Would appreciate hearing your work thoughts.

The tensile and compressive strength comes from the fibers. They are like thousands of tiny columns. If the epoxy matrix wasn’t there, then those columns would buckle with hardly any compressive stress at all. The epoxy just keeps the fibers aligned and together, and helps prevent buckling under compression. It doesn’t contribute much otherwise, and just goes along for the ride. This is why composite manufacturers try to maximize the percentage of fiber in a composite.

The epoxy matrix plays a bigger role in the mechanical properties where the fibers are woven or short random fibers. This is because the fiber is being pulled and pushed at angles to the epoxy matrix, like pulling a rope sideways through jello. This is also why woven composites are much less stiff compared to unidirectional composites.

Alan

Offline Buemaker

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Re: Question for any Engineers or Materials Scientists out there
« Reply #73 on: January 14, 2021, 07:58:29 AM »
What you guys know. I am impressed.

Online onetone

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Re: Question for any Engineers or Materials Scientists out there
« Reply #74 on: January 14, 2021, 09:49:56 AM »
Thanks Alan.

Online mmattockx

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Re: Question for any Engineers or Materials Scientists out there
« Reply #75 on: January 14, 2021, 11:19:57 AM »
AVCase: It seems to me that both glass and carbon fibers are only marginally flexible, compressible or elastic. So is true that the matrix binding such fibers, like epoxy, is where the stretching, compressing and recovery happens? Would appreciate hearing your work thoughts.

Alan has already answered the question about what carries the load in an epoxy/fibre composite, but he didn't comment on the 'marginally flexible' part.

Fibreglass is quite flexible/elastic in that it will survive ~5% strain before failure in a tensile test (for bare S glass fibres). As a reference, most carbon steel begins yielding at around 0.2% strain, so fibreglass will stretch 25 times more than steel will before failing. Gordon's claim a maximum tensile strain limit of 2.5% for their S glass lams, so it is a fair bit lower in the epoxy/fibre matrix.

Carbon fibres are much stiffer than fibreglass fibres, but the difference is less in the epoxy matrix. Gordon's claims a flexural modulus for their carbon lams that is 13% higher than their S glass lams. The maximum tensile strain for the carbon lams is 3.3%.


Mark

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Re: Question for any Engineers or Materials Scientists out there
« Reply #76 on: January 14, 2021, 11:59:50 AM »
Flem...  Are you planning on using the microspheres as a core or as a lam..??  What you wrote sounded like you were gonna use it as a lam... If so I feel it would be a complete failure... 

Offline Flem

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Re: Question for any Engineers or Materials Scientists out there
« Reply #77 on: January 14, 2021, 01:34:20 PM »
Flem...  Are you planning on using the microspheres as a core or as a lam..??  What you wrote sounded like you were gonna use it as a lam... If so I feel it would be a complete failure... 

Please elaborate

Offline Bow-n-Head

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Re: Question for any Engineers or Materials Scientists out there
« Reply #78 on: January 14, 2021, 02:14:39 PM »
Fem;  Where did u get the fiberglass  cloth ?  Thanx,  Ray

Offline avcase

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Re: Question for any Engineers or Materials Scientists out there
« Reply #79 on: January 14, 2021, 04:22:06 PM »
Figured I was not the only one thinking about this. I'm just going to throw this out and see what you all think. So I'm thinking the laminate we put on the belly side is not optimal. We use a laminate that was obviously designed to placed on the bow's back. It's reinforced with unidirectional fibers that have one purpose. So why do we use the same laminate on the belly? Why not use a laminate designed to resist the  compressive forces. I have been planning on doing some experimenting with epoxy and hollow glass microspheres. 3M makes some with 27,000psi crush strength. The epoxy I will use is 26,000psi. The density of the microspheres is 0.6 g/cc, the epoxy is 1.1 g/cc. Big potential for weight savings for no loss in strength. Plus I have been reading documents on testing of various composites and the addition of hollow glass microspheres has been shown to increase the modulus of resistance, so the theoretical laminate should be able to absorb and release more energy. I still need to do a bit more research to confirm and would like to see MOResistance specs for epoxy. I am still debating whether or not to add a .002 biaxial layer of glass for a bit more structural integrity and if the addition of more elastic epoxy is necessary, also the percentage of HGM to use in the matrix. I'd like to hear anybody's ideas, just remember I'm trying to move this idea forward, not stalling out or going backwards.

Flem,
What is the best way to make a composite for best compression strength?  Maybe another example might help. A solid Steel column has very high compression strength, right?  Now picture making an equivalent steel column out of many spaghetti-like strands of thin steel wire and put a compressive load on it.  Even though an equivalent cross-section of wire is just as strong in compression as the solid column, it won’t support much weight at all because all the little strands buckle under load.  But then take some super strong thread and tightly bind this bundle together so that it can’t buckle so easily, and put a compressive load on it. It will behave totally different. It will be able withstand a very high compressive load and will act more like the solid steel column.  For composites, the epoxy is what is tightly binding these little thin columns together and preventing them from buckling.

Now add micro balloons to this bundle. What do you think will happen?  In the example of the thin steel wires bound together, it will be like mixing marbles between the wires before they are bound together. This creates little voids and misalignments of the wires, which does two things. First, there will be fewer wires to resist the compression that can fit in the same space. Second, it can cause little misalignments and kinks in the wire bundle, which makes the bundle more susceptible to buckling under compression.

27,000 psi crush strength in not even close to the compression strength of a composite with unidirectional fibers reinforcing it.  Unidirectional Glass or carbon composite materials have a typical compression strength of around 150,000-160,000 psi.

The strength of the epoxy is not a major factor. The elastic modulus of the epoxy is relatively low, so it just goes along for the ride when compressed or pulled in tension. In the example of the steel column, it is more like binding together the steel spaghetti column in a matrix of rubber.

Alan

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