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Author Topic: Face or back  (Read 12580 times)

Offline Flem

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Re: Face or back
« Reply #60 on: January 31, 2021, 10:54:56 AM »
I think I am going to relocate my bow building to someplace where they know about neutral...
Like Switzerland. Just hope I don't have to take the Autobahn to get there :bigsmyl:
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Offline Mad Max

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Re: Face or back
« Reply #61 on: January 31, 2021, 10:57:45 AM »
Quote flem "Don't quote me on that!"
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Offline Flem

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Re: Face or back
« Reply #62 on: January 31, 2021, 11:19:47 AM »
Mark, did you just quote me because I quoted myself after being quoted?
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Online Stagmitis

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Re: Face or back
« Reply #63 on: January 31, 2021, 11:22:37 AM »
The movie ELF  :laughing:
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Shredd

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Re: Face or back
« Reply #64 on: January 31, 2021, 11:28:55 AM »
I really liked Bvas's suggestion about building a straight bow with .030 on one side and .040 on the other and test the bow with lots of real numbers...  That would be so simple to build...  I would love to see one of you tech guys run with it and do a whole thread on it...  Maybe one also with.020 on one side and .040 on the other also...
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Offline Mad Max

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Re: Face or back
« Reply #65 on: January 31, 2021, 11:39:43 AM »
Did nt watch Elf :thumbsup:
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I would rather fail at something above my means, than to succeed at something  beneath my means  
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Online Stagmitis

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Re: Face or back
« Reply #66 on: January 31, 2021, 12:58:44 PM »

Shredd said:

So the bottom line is if you all want to be real about this performance thing and want to work as a team to reach higher performance I would start comparing notes on geometry first until you cannot go any further in performance before you start discussing carbon and theories and such

How true: Kinda like putting a bandaid on a cut that needs stitches.
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Offline EvilDogBeast

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Re: Face or back
« Reply #67 on: January 31, 2021, 02:35:06 PM »
Prefaced with, I am not trying to be rude or attack anyone.  This is simply something for everyone to think about.

I think the intention of this thread was simply to theorycraft better performance through design.  Discussion on design and materials can both lead us to better performance and both should be discussed.  At the end of the day, this is really just to exercise our brains and may or may not lead to a breakthrough from one of our bowyers.

On a side note, I am not quite sure why every one of these discussions always has to break down into, "stop talking and go build something", or "graphite is the devil".  Is it really such a crime to think something can outperform fiberglass?  Composite industries have moved on to more modern materials, why can't we?  Does it really detract anything from traditional bows to use graphite or some other advanced composite?  There is a reason fifth and sixth generation fighters are utilizing advanced composites.  They are objectively superior in every quality.

TL;DR: We should encourage thinking outside the box rather than smashing those thoughts back into the box.
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Offline Mad Max

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Re: Face or back
« Reply #68 on: January 31, 2021, 02:46:19 PM »
SALES
When Carbon fiber came on the market everyone wanted it .
If it was that good, more Bowyers would be using it or selling it.

Most don't want it and it cost to much.

My 2 cents
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Online Roy from Pa

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Re: Face or back
« Reply #69 on: January 31, 2021, 03:09:42 PM »
I just wanna know, is it the face or back?

That's the title of this thread:)

 :wavey:
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Shredd

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Re: Face or back
« Reply #70 on: January 31, 2021, 04:35:28 PM »
Sorry about putting a monkey wrench in this thread...  I am just being straight up...  I supplied some valuable info...  I hope somebody gets it and runs with it...  If I can help one person it was worth it...  Just trying to get some of you guys in a positive, constructive direction...  To me it sometimes seems that there is a house needed to be built all the lumber and plywood is laying there but it's taking a month for the engineers to discuss, decide what type of nails to use... 

   Bvas had a great idea...  Totally suited for this thread and somehow it went over everybody's head, no one even tried to discuss it or made a comment on it...  If I saw this two or three years ago I would have been all over this...  I am still itching to do it, but I just got about 15 other experiments that I would like to try in front of this one....

   As for carbon fiber you gotta love the stuff... It is lightweight, stiff and ridgid...  And in my book that is what is to be used for, something that you want lightweight, stiff and ridgid... You don't use a screwdriver when you need a wrench...  ;)   Bows are not ridgid when you use carbon fiber for the whole limb I think you start going in the wrong direction...  I here of lots of problems with carbon fiber and failures happening... The stuff stresses easier than glass and is brittle... It really wants to be stiff and ridgid...  I just proved to you in my post that you don't need carbon for a fast bow...  Now take that carbon fiber and apply it to the last 8 to10" of the  the limb and now you may have got something...  That's where you want the limb stiff, ridgid and light weight... The trick is pulling that off and whether it will handle the shock and not seperate from the glass...  Think of the ugly stick fishing rod but in reverse...

   I love these tech threads I learn something from everyone of them but it seems sometimes you guys get talking in circles and I am not seeing anyone building bows and testing these theories...  I thought this was a bow building sight...  It would be great if once in a while somebody ran with one of these ideas and built a bow, and shared all the great info that you learned from the experience...

   In my book, what is on paper usually does not match up with real life...

   You guys keep talking this tech stuff all you want...  I enjoy it to a degree and I usually learn something from it...  But after two or three years if no one builds a bow applying some of these tech talk techniques and gets a bow shooting over 183 to 185 fps it seems that something is amiss here... You can't shoot a bow that is on paper...  I would love to see one of you all build a high tech bow breaking 190 fps...  I say raise the bar...

     YOU CAN DO IT...!!!   Just give it a try...  I'll help you where I can... Call anytime...
« Last Edit: January 31, 2021, 04:44:53 PM by Shredd »
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Offline EvilDogBeast

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Re: Face or back
« Reply #71 on: January 31, 2021, 04:59:17 PM »
We have a roll of graphite pre-preg at work that expires in December.  If we hit that point and someone hasn't built one, I will see if I can use some of it to make a bow.  I think a solid laminate limb in a D/R configuration would be interesting to try.  Would be significantly narrower and thinner than a normal D/R.  Or maybe a Hill with an inch or two of reflex.  Either way I'm guessing limbs that are probably going to be about an inch wide and less than 0.100" thick over a span of 60-64".  Instead of thickness tapering it would have to be width tapered something like a pyramid bow.
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Shredd

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Re: Face or back
« Reply #72 on: January 31, 2021, 05:14:28 PM »
  Awesome... Now we're talking... Looking forward to this... If you are limited on the testing end you can ship it to me and I can test it for you and can do a very accurate dfc for it...

  Are you gonna try and make one with glass at the same poundage also to compare the two??
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Offline Flem

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Re: Face or back
« Reply #73 on: January 31, 2021, 05:26:44 PM »
Quote from: EvilDogBeast on January 31, 2021, 02:35:06 PM
Prefaced with, I am not trying to be rude or attack anyone.  This is simply something for everyone to think about.

I think the intention of this thread was simply to theorycraft better performance through design.  Discussion on design and materials can both lead us to better performance and both should be discussed.  At the end of the day, this is really just to exercise our brains and may or may not lead to a breakthrough from one of our bowyers.

On a side note, I am not quite sure why every one of these discussions always has to break down into, "stop talking and go build something", or "graphite is the devil".  Is it really such a crime to think something can outperform fiberglass?  Composite industries have moved on to more modern materials, why can't we?  Does it really detract anything from traditional bows to use graphite or some other advanced composite?  There is a reason fifth and sixth generation fighters are utilizing advanced composites.  They are objectively superior in every quality.

TL;DR: We should encourage thinking outside the box rather than smashing those thoughts back into the box.

 :thumbsup:

We have not even talked about Carbon/UHMWPE hybrid composites.

Is that pre-preg unidirectional?  Whats the cure temp for your material?
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Offline EvilDogBeast

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Re: Face or back
« Reply #74 on: January 31, 2021, 05:46:21 PM »
The pre-preg we use on the C-17's is a twill weave.  We cure it under a -22 vacuum with a 5 -7 degree per minute ramp and a 3 hour soak at 270 degrees.
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Offline Flem

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Re: Face or back
« Reply #75 on: January 31, 2021, 06:57:35 PM »
Sounds interesting. I vote for a Hill style ;) I'm curious how to do the lay-up and cure, incorporating a pre-preg? I could never figure out a way to do it at home with conventional resins and laminates. Not to mention the temp restrictions of my heat box and vac materials.
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Offline EvilDogBeast

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Re: Face or back
« Reply #76 on: January 31, 2021, 07:18:56 PM »
I think I would do an initial flat layup of 10 one inch wide plies.  After that was cured, I would do a wet layup of a riser and 5  one inch wide plies on each side running up the ramps.  Would need to use some film adhesive between the pre-cured back, the ramps, and the riser.  After that, taper to shape, dawn a face shield, and toss it on the tree.  If it doesn't detonate I'd try to work up the courage to shoot it lol.

Edit:  The beauty of our pre-preg is it doesn't cure until heated.
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Offline EvilDogBeast

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Re: Face or back
« Reply #77 on: January 31, 2021, 07:24:11 PM »
An alternating combination of unidirectional and biaxial weave would be ideal.  An orientation of uni, 0, uni, 180, uni, 0, etc.
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Offline Flem

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Re: Face or back
« Reply #78 on: January 31, 2021, 09:29:05 PM »
So do you get to experiment at work or do you have a tricked out home shop?
Either way I'm envious!
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Online Longcruise

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Re: Face or back
« Reply #79 on: January 31, 2021, 09:39:14 PM »
Quote from: Flem on January 31, 2021, 10:54:56 AM
I think I am going to relocate my bow building to someplace where they know about neutral...
Like Switzerland. Just hope I don't have to take the Autobahn to get there :bigsmyl:

Yeah, all their planes are neutral.  :)
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"Every man is the creature of the age in which he lives;  very few are able to raise themselves above the ideas of the time"     Voltaire
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