Building the right arrow

[Wheatley_Jim]

Greetings.  I would be appreciative of guidance for arrow construction.  I have my first ever custom bow on order.  It’s been several years since I hunted.  I’ve ordered a longbow designed with a slight reflex/deflex.  I’ve messed up my shoulders over the years, so had to go relatively light draw weight at 42 pounds.  Here’s what I am thinking at this point, but I am open to suggestions and feedback.  Purpose is whitetail hunting.  At least initially, maximum shooting distance will be 15 yards.  Would like to use carbon arrows.  From what I have read and done in the past, high or ultra-high FOC … into the range of 25-30% is desirable for arrow flight and penetration.  Preference is 2-blade, single bevel broadheads.  My draw length is 28” and so would ideally cut the shafts to approx. 29”.  However in order to achieve the FOC, I’m assuming I will stack in two inserts up front that will effectively reduce arrow spine length by 2-3”.  Perhaps will also glue in a weighted insert into the broadhead itself.  Would like to be able to maintain consistent weights for swapping to field points, blunts, or judos. First of all, does that information above make sense?  If so, what total arrow weight range would this put me in?  Similarly, when drawing 42 pounds, what total arrow weight should I use in order to achieve good arrow speed and flight?  What shafts should I use?  GPI?  What are your preferences for broadheads?   Is anyone using a set-up close to what I have described above?  Thanks in advance for your ideas and suggestions on shafts, broadheads, tuning, or other things that will ultimately result in good arrow flight and stopping power?

[the rifleman]

They may move this to the powow.
I hunt our cornfed whitetails with bows ranging from 40-42#.  I've used everything from 10 gpp to 15 gpp.  I use 2 blade broadheads--- Zwickey, grizzly single bevel and stingers.  Regardless of gpp i have had no problem getting the arrow out the other side, except when it buries in the offside shoulder.  I don't strive for high foc--- regardless of arrow my rigs won't shoot through the shoulder bones.  My main concern is what can i hit best with.
 This year i killed a big doe w a 40# and a 550 gr arrow at 6 yds.  The heavy arrow gave me tight gaps at short distances.  That same arrow drops like a rock past 20 yds.
I won't knock heavy arrows and high foc-- they work, but my 10 gpp arrows also do everything i need them to do on our big whitetail.
This year ive changed my shooting style to more of a split vision and am keeping arrows in the 10-11 gpp range so i can shoot 3d with my hunting arrows and have a bit of trajectory forgiveness  out to 25 yds in the woods.
As said, any of the above weights have worked well for me.  The only reason i went to the 15 gpp was for a very close (18 yd) point on.  The nice buck that was broadside at 25 yds this year benefitted from that heavy arrow.
As you know, a well tuned arrow, very sharp coc head, and accurate placement are key.

[HartHeart]

I'm a big fan of small(not micro) diameter arrow shafts. Specifically Victory RIP's. These lightweight shafts are also fairly durable especially if footed. My current setup is a 48# radical R/D longbow and Victory RIP 400's. With a 29" arrow, 3" of external aluminum footing, and 300 grains of point weight I'm achieving 28% FOC and my total arrow weight is right around 600 grains. This combo is fire! It impacts the target with an authoritative thump and yet has a reasonable trajectory out to 25-30 yards. That EFOC is also nice and I've found these things to be surprisingly durable. I'd say that if you were pulling five more pounds you would have a LOT more flexibility in building an arrow. All that said, I tend to be extreme.

[Orion]

I'm thinking a .600 spine shaft cut to 29 inches with about 250 grains up front will give you an arrow close to 500 grains, about 12 gpp, which is a pretty heavy arrow for your bow.  More than that and speed and trajectory suffer quite a bit.  Just guessing, but I'm thinking this will put you in the neighborhood of 20% FOC or a little higher.  Really don't need an arrow weight or FOC greater than that for deer size critters.  Can get the up front weight any number of ways by combining various insert, adaptor and broadhead weights.  For example, a 100 grain insert, 125 grain head and 25 grain adaptor.  I'm partial to Zwickey heads.  A two-blade Eskimo or No Mercy would work fine.  I like Easton Axis shafts, but most any carbon shaft nowadays is pretty good.  Good luck.  Have fun.

[Baylee]

You can read the Ashby studies which have all the information about FOC, it’s free on the website. If you do read it you’ll see that Ashby found 20% Foc and 650 grains weight to reach the bone breaking thresh hold. There is one specific case where he tested a 40# @27 bow with various arrow weights, on a water buffalo. 40# EFOC arrows broke water buffalo bones, which are far tougher than a whitetail.
     The problem with such low weight draw and EFOC, or heavy arrows for that matter, is trajectory. But if you keep to the 15 yard max shot distance even a 650 grain arrow should be fine. You’ll have to test a couple of spines @ 29” to find the perfect flying arrow for your setup. Whatever EFOC that comes out to is what you get be that 20% or 30%. What you need is the lightest, stiffest shaft you can get at your arrow length so by the time you add enough weight to get it bare shafted, you’ll be heavy enough without being 1000 grains.

The same 40#@27” bow was tested with super heavy arrows, with various FOC every single time the higher the FOC the deeper the penetration. FOC was far more important to penetration than weight alone. EFOC arrows especially in the 40# weight bows is insurance when something goes wrong, not excuse to try and penetrate a deers shoulder or take quartering to you shots. If you stick to 15 yards  and make good choices on shot placement any well tuned arrow with a good broadhead should be plenty, nothing wrong with using an EFOC arrow but it ain’t a magic bullet at 40#. The new craze is high FOC and compounds shooting thru shoulder blades. That’s a different world from a longbow and best left to YouTube heros.

You asked about broadheads and seeing your looking to build a EFOC arrow then your looking for penetration. Single bevel 3:1 broadheads proved to penetrate the best. But any 3:1 BH is going to penetrate fine single or double bevel. Grizzlys are proven performers and there’s a dozen others that will work just as well. You can pay 40$ per BH or 5$ your choice, but it’s shot placement that will kill the animal not fancy marketing hype or exotic steel in the broadheads.

Last thing don’t get wound around all the YouTube hype. You’ll end up with a $2000 bow shooting 100$ a piece arrows to shoot a whitetail deer at 15 yards.

[Steelhead]

You dont have to worry about trajectory at 15 yards and under.

I think you would be looking at a 600 spine seriously.Cut to around 29 inches at your 28 inch draw from a mild R&D longbow.Remember alot of mild R&Ds are cut 1/8th out from center typically.Though I have requested cut to center on lighter bows in the under 45 # range in both mild R&Ds and a few ASLs.So you need your arrow to bend around the sight window when it goes through paradox.Sometimes requires a lighter spine to do that correctly.

I would probably use a brass insert in 50,75 or 100 grain combined with 125 grain to 175 grain head.It does not hurt to have a variety of field points from 100 to 250 grains really for carbons for your tuning.You can swap ount your brass insert if you use hot melt glue easily.

I do shoot aluminum alot.Believe it or not many archers still use them and love them!Easy to tune!Good weight and not expensive.Out of bow like yours a 1916 is gonna b a great arrow cut to around 29 and 125,150 or 175 grain  grain head.That will give you an excellant hunting arrow,thats tough,small diameter and over 10 grains per pound of draw.

Okay I know you want carbon,thats great!But dont dismiss a 1916 or maybe 2016 in your arsenal to go with your carbons.I always can find one of my aluminums to tune up easy to a new bow in my poundage range.So I go with 1916s,2016s up to 1918s for my heavier bows or very high performance bows that want more spine.

[mark Pettit]

I'm shooting almost exactly the same bow weight. A six hundred spine with 150 to 175 up front at the distance your gonna hunt. More than enough will spine great. Shaving sharp broadheads. You'll be fine. I don't see the need to put all that forward weight an slow your arrow. It just not necessary. Stay safe God bless. 

[Coach Jones]

I shoot 41@28 and a CE Heritage 75 (670 spine) with a 175 grain point full length bare shafts perfect for me.  They weigh right at 465 grains.  Don't be afraid to try a 700 spine.

[Judd]

I currently shoot a 45 # @28" DAS recurve
My arrows are Gold Tip Hunter 500 spine 30" 100 gr. insert with a 250 gr tip\broad head, 610 gr total weight with 3 - 4" feathers.
The arrows bare shaft exactly the same as my feathered shafts.
You could probably reduce the tip weight and be very close to very good arrow flight
I also bare shaft with the arrow wrap (7") that I use when the feathers are on the shaft. 

[DNewer]

It’s nice to see someone building the arrow around the purpose I.e. the lethality aspect. I highly recommend googling the Ashby Foundation and researching the factors of arrow penetration. Listed in order of importance, the number 1 factor is arrow/Broadhead integrity followed closely by arrow flight.   As others have stated, at 15 yards trajectory shouldn’t be much of a factor with a heavier arrow. It seems in my experience building and tuning efoc carbon arrows and using a 1.5-2” aluminum footer I need to go up in spine group relative to bow draw weight and go from there.  Please note I bareshaft tune all of my arrows following the generally accepted bare shaft guidelines available here and across the internet.
 Good luck

[Friend]

The following arrow specs have performed quite well in the field for bows at 42#s:

BE Carnivore 400...~30 1/4"...100 gn insert...200 gn BH....~12.5 gpp...~525 gn total...~27% EFOC...

[Baylee]

A .600 spine shaft may work fine with standard FOC. But a .500 or maybe even stiffer spine may be needed to get close to 25-30% FOC. Depending on your riser cut to center amount. You can’t take an arrow spine that normally shoots from your bow with normal FOC and load it down with weight and expect it to shoot the same, you have changed the spine with the added weight.

FOC  or EFOC will not slow down an arrow. You can get just as perfect flight and speed with a high FOC as standard FOC. A lot of people can’t tune the high FOC arrows and assume no one else can. It’s not a myth it’s proven facts. A well tuned EFOC arrow can use smaller feathers because the arrow is flying that much straighter without needing them. A well tuned EFOC arrow can be shot bare shaft with a broadhead, try that with a normal FOC arrow.

Best bet would be get a couple shafts in .600, .500 cut them to your desired length of 29”. Bareshaft them see what it takes to get perfect arrow flight. You may find the .600 with a normal FOC shoots better for you and you’ll be fine at 15 yards. You may find you like the high FOC flight better and although not mandatory you’ve lost nothing. Not speed or  accuracy and have gained penetration, real fact based, proven penetration.
One thing for certain you will not get high FOC with full length arrows, 4” of shaft sticking out only adds to the length which has to be accounted for in the FOC calculation. 28” draw 29” arrow, you should have no problem getting perfect flight and your choice of FOC percentages.

 Extra shaft length is not necessary or beneficial to high foc arrows and is a by product of carbon arrows. Aluminum and wood arrow charts where made for about 1” of shaft past draw length, 4-6” of arrow shaft sticking out is due to lack of tunning. If a 32” .500 flies perfect a 29” .600 would probably fly just as well or maybe even a lower spine.

[Tim Finley]

I think people are reading too much, a few years ago we didnt know what FOC and we did alright killing deer and other big game . A rainbow trajectory aint good either. 10 grains per pound is perfect which includes a  125 to 150 grain broadhead.

[Baylee]

You may have not known about FOC a few years ago but the information has been out for 35 years or so. A lot of misconceptions about the study and what it found. Rainbow trajectory, or extremely heavy arrows are two of the top ones. None of the information is mandatory but all of it was proven.

 With only the adjustment of an arrows construction you can increase the penetration by up to 50% in some cases. Without changing bows, adding draw weight, or sacrificing accuracy, what else can claim that and have proof to back it up?

The new popularity of the Ashby study, by compound hunters, has some believing its some new fad. Been around awile, same as single bevel broadheads. Just takes some people 40 years to grasp it.

[the rifleman]

Agree with Tim Finley.  As said earlier, I've killed a bunch of our big corn fed whitetails with from 10-15gpp.  The only thing the heavy arrow did differently was drop like a rock after 20 yds.  I can honestly say I've seen no difference in penetration on a deer.
In other words, i think you'll be just fine no matter what you choose at 15 and in, but if you do need to put a second shot on an animal at longer distances, you'll find the trajectory of a more moderate weight arrow more forgiving than a heavy one.

[Baylee]

You can have a high FOC arrow and still be within the 10-15 gpp weight. High FOC doesn’t necessarily mean over weighted, that’s a misconception made by people that either haven’t read the Ashby study or don’t understand it. Most people wouldn’t try to hunt Cape buffalo with a 40# bow so they probably wouldn’t need a 800 grain arrow.

[the rifleman]

I well understand high foc.  Also have read and understand the ashby study.  I don't discount any of the information.  But i put my gear together based on my actual experiences.  Just what has worked for me.  Nothing i read will change that.

[Mad Bear]

All the charts on arrow spine are only a ballpark estimate. It will take lots of long range testing with your broadheads to determine best arrow flight. There are so many variables at play, especially with a new bow.

This is where arrow spine test kits are great. Try a selection of spines and a few different point weights. With carbon you have options on the insert to weight match your broadheads to your field point. Bareshaft testing this way will give you a good baseline on how your bow is performing with a certain configuration. A good release and consistent form is needed.

Good luck

[Baylee]

I well understand high foc.  Also have read and understand the ashby study.  I don't discount any of the information.  But i put my gear together based on my actual experiences.  Just what has worked for me.  Nothing i read will change that.

The way your posts read, your combining high FOC and excessively heavy weight, which would lead to the rainbow trajectory you agreed with in  Tim’s post. The two, over weighted arrows and high FOC are not synonymous. If a 10-12 gpp arrow is your preference you can still have High FOC in 10-12 gpp. And high foc was one of the OPs original questions. Not everyone wants to make a High FOC arrow, and that’s fine. But rainbow trajectory is not a problem with High FOC arrows, unless you don’t understand the concept. And reading your post it seems you have the two, high FOC and poor trajectory, as being inseparable, that is not the case. Or maybe you were talking only about really heavy arrows, which is a different subject than High FOC.

 If two arrows pass completely thru a deer, one High FOC one normal FOC, there would be noway to compare penetration results. When a shoulder bone is hit or a steep quartering angle, or low poundage is used, that’s where the differences will show. That’s what the Ashby study’s proved, not what happens when everything works perfectly, but what happens when it doesn’t.

[the rifleman]

I think you misunderstood bayle--- i cited a 15 gpp arrow and didn't state anything about foc as the reason for that arrows weight.  If you'll read my first post you'll understand that i built that arrow for a closer point on.
I used to balance arrows on edges to measure foc until--and if you'll read all of my posts-- i discovered it just wasn't a necessary step in my arrow building.  Even with the lighter arrows i obviously have enough up front to tune with and as i noted they do the job as well as the heavier arrows I've shot with the benefits of a flatter trajectory.  Do they meet the standard of high foc?  Don't know, don't care.  All i onow is that they work.
But you're right about 1 thing--- as said i agree with Tim.