Low FOC Question

[bigcountry]

I just got a Black widow PLX 64# at 28". I draw 29.5". I wanted to use Gold tip Trads 5575. After bare shaft tuning, I am left with 50gr brass wieght at nock, with nock adaptor and 20gr brass up front with 145gr tip. But I am seeing only 8.5% FOC with a 29.5" shaft + 1/2" nock adaptor to make a 30.5" arrow.

I am shooting well up to 22yards, but it falls apart after that. Very erratic at 25yards-35 yards. And I consistently hit slightly to the right. I figured its still a little weak.

I think I need 15% FOC, as this has worked well for me.

Is 8% to low? Is long range erratic performance a sign of too low FOC? Never faced this issue before.

I have some 2216's, and tried 125gr tips and still slightly weak.  Whats next?  2219's?

[just_a_hunter]

You are getting completely different results then I am.

I am shooting a PMA11, 67@30". When I bare shafted I was showing week as well. I think Widows are pretty close to center shot. I tried lighter tip points but was getting no improvement with my bareshafting. I even bought 77/95's to try and cure it. It took 375 grains up front with the 75/95's to get good arrow flight. That was too much for me. I then went back to the 55/75's and started adding tip weight. I'm getting really good results with a 32" 55/75 with 265 up front (including insert), with no nock adapter for 19.5% FOC.

My advice is go heavier up front and see if you don't straiten out.

Good luck,

Todd

[bigcountry]

Well, I might have try 2219's.  I have one bare shaft, and get a stiff reaction with 145gr up front and get a weak reaction with 2216's with 125gr up front.

[bm22]

Why did you add the nock adapter ? i would never add weight to the back of an arrow, if you need to go to the 7595's. they are 32 inches to add a 100 grain brass insert and the point you want and start cutting from the back . it will bareshaft perfect before you have get to 29.5 in. arrow, depending on what broadhead you want to shoot you might try a 100 grain brass insert and a 100 grain steel adapter and   start cutting.

i have not tried to add weight to the back of an arrow but my buddy has and funny stuff started happing to the arrow. like the weak then stiff spine from shot to shot

[bigcountry]

I added the nock adaptor to add wieght to the arrow.  If I only added wieght to the front I would only have a 450gr arrow.  I have to add weight evenly both front and back to get the arrow up to 600gr.  

The wieght setup on gold tips has worked great for me on several bows.  Even the spine programs like On-target agrees with what I am seeing.  The problem is I need a spine like .350" but would like to be able to add the wieght system to get my arrow up to 600gr.

[Van/TX]

My goodness.  You lost me      ...Van

[DesertDude]

The 75/95 XT Hunter (black)from GT is rated at .340 spine. the Heritage 350 is rated at .320 spine. My set requires an arrow with a spine in the .300 to .340 spine area depending on how I weight it up. There are alot of options out there.......Hope this helps.

[bigcountry]

Thank DD.  I thought it was odd that the 5575trads are so much different spined.  

Does anyone know if the nock adaptors and GT inserts work in heritages?

[hvyhitter]

Shooting 29.5 inch 2219s out of a 67# palmer and a 65# roseoak, 190 up front and around 600 + total weight. They shoot sweet without alot of fuss.

[Jon Stewart]

Way toooooo technical.  Grab an arrow and shoot it. LOL

[bigcountry]

Originally posted by Jon Stewart:
Way toooooo technical.  Grab an arrow and shoot it. LOL

thats fine and dandy for ya.  But I am not happy how it is shooting past 25 yards.  Therefore, we or most archers try to tune the arrow for the bow.  

FOC is fairly simple and really every archer should at least have an idea what it is.  Not technical at all.

[Jon Stewart]

Big, just joking with ya.  I just haven't seen that many numbers and % connnected with traditional archery before.  I keep my shots under 15 yards  anyway.

[just_a_hunter]

I don't get it.

We both have the same arrow and pretty close to the same bow, real close to the same draw. I shoot 3 more pounds then you. How come my traditional 35/55's shoot really well with no nock adapter and 265 up front for 19.5 FOC? Total arrow weight is 570ish which I'm happy with.

I strongly recomend you take the nock adapter out of one of your arrows, add about 300 grains up front and shoot it once. What do you have to loose?

If you would like to PM your address I will send you 100 grains worth of brass weights and a 200 grain field tip.

We possibly can't be this much different with our set-ups.

Continued good luck,

Todd

[just_a_hunter]

I meant to add that yes you can add  brass weights to the inserts on Gold Tips.

Todd

[Rob DiStefano]

More than a few years ago, my initial plunge into the dark world of carbons was time consuming and expensive.  

First thing I learned (the hard way) was that the spine ratings and manufacturer shaft recommendations were total doo-doo (at least for me).  

Contrare to the charts, weak spined arrows ALWAYS flew the best (for me) ... better yet, adding in LOTS of FOC made them all fly like darts when bare shafted.  

I rarely waste time with bare shafting - I'm only interested in great flight from a completed arrow.  Adding fletching can, and usually does, radically change the way a shaft flies off the string and shelf.  

I use two shafts - AD Trads and Beman Venture 500s.  The AD Trads, due to their tapered butt, will work off any bow in the 40# and up range, with any FOC.  The Venture 500s are very tunable for total shaft weight and FOC.  With 300 grains up front I get 27% FOC on a 29" 540 grain hunting arrow for a 55# hyrid longbow.  225 grains up front yields a 460 grain 3D arrow and 22% FOC.

In summary, take off any butt shaft weight, load the front up as heavy as ya can, fletch up and shoot - don't bother bare shafting.

[bigcountry]

Originally posted by Rob DiStefano:

I rarely waste time with bare shafting - I'm only interested in great flight from a completed arrow.  Adding fletching can, and usually does, radically change the way a shaft flies off the string and shelf.  

I use two shafts - AD Trads and Beman Venture 500s.  The AD Trads, due to their tapered butt, will work off any bow in the 40# and up range, with any FOC.  The Venture 500s are very tunable for total shaft weight and FOC.  With 300 grains up front I get 27% FOC on a 29" 540 grain hunting arrow for a 55# hyrid longbow.  225 grains up front yields a 460 grain 3D arrow and 22% FOC.

In summary, take off any butt shaft weight, load the front up as heavy as ya can, fletch up and shoot - don't bother bare shafting.

I hope I don't come off being rude but, I am not sure how this happened.  But this post was not about how to bare shaft.  Or does it work.  Or variations in spines with carbons.  Or taking off back wieght.

It was strickly a question of low FOC finger shooting and its effects.  

I am sorry, you have had so much trouble bare shaft tuning Rob.  Myself, I love it, and it works awesome for me.  So does broadhead tuning and paper tuning.  So I am not sure why you would have so much trouble bare shaft tuning.  Its fairly easy and straight forward.  Usually, once I go thru the motions, everything works out great, but I usually stick to bows 60lbs or less. So this is a unique situation.

Again, I have found the spine I was looking for, and have great flight up to 20-25 yards.  Just having trouble hitting my target at 30-35 yards.  I thought it might be the low FOC (which is a something new for me)  I was just wanting some opinions from folks with simular wieght bows to tell me thier high FOC setups.  I want 15-20% FOC, plus >600gr weight arrow, plus great flight.  Obviously, the 5575 is just too weak spine for my needs.  

If I go and add only front wieght to get the desired wieght I want, I get fishtailing due to the spine being very weak.  Just a hunter, I have tried a setup close to yours with 30" arrow and 234gr up front and get the worst flight I ever seen.  I am getting dart flighting performance with my setup, just low FOC (I don't like that).  

Thanks for any replies.

[Rob DiStefano]

Originally posted by bigcountry:
 

Originally posted by Rob DiStefano:

I rarely waste time with bare shafting - I'm only interested in great flight from a completed arrow.  Adding fletching can, and usually does, radically change the way a shaft flies off the string and shelf.  

I use two shafts - AD Trads and Beman Venture 500s.  The AD Trads, due to their tapered butt, will work off any bow in the 40# and up range, with any FOC.  The Venture 500s are very tunable for total shaft weight and FOC.  With 300 grains up front I get 27% FOC on a 29" 540 grain hunting arrow for a 55# hyrid longbow.  225 grains up front yields a 460 grain 3D arrow and 22% FOC.

In summary, take off any butt shaft weight, load the front up as heavy as ya can, fletch up and shoot - don't bother bare shafting.

I hope I don't come off being rude but, I am not sure how this happened.  But this post was not about how to bare shaft.  Or does it work.  Or variations in spines with carbons.  Or taking off back wieght.

It was strickly a question of low FOC finger shooting and its effects.  

I am sorry, you have had so much trouble bare shaft tuning Rob.  Myself, I love it, and it works awesome for me.  So does broadhead tuning and paper tuning.  So I am not sure why you would have so much trouble bare shaft tuning.  Its fairly easy and straight forward.  Usually, once I go thru the motions, everything works out great, but I usually stick to bows 60lbs or less. So this is a unique situation.

Again, I have found the spine I was looking for, and have great flight up to 20-25 yards.  Just having trouble hitting my target at 30-35 yards.  I thought it might be the low FOC (which is a something new for me)  I was just wanting some opinions from folks with simular wieght bows to tell me thier high FOC setups.  I want 15-20% FOC, plus >600gr weight arrow, plus great flight.  Obviously, the 5575 is just too weak spine for my needs.  

If I go and add only front wieght to get the desired wieght I want, I get fishtailing due to the spine being very weak.  Just a hunter, I have tried a setup close to yours with 30" arrow and 234gr up front and get the worst flight I ever seen.  I am getting dart flighting performance with my setup, just low FOC (I don't like that).  

Thanks for any replies. [/b]

No concerns or issues on my part.

I have no problems with bare shafting, I just don't have a personal need for it, nor do I believe it is all that necessary.  

I talked about bare shafting because you used that process in your arrow tuning and all that you do with arrow tuning can affect FOC - particularly since you stated your bare shafting indicated a need for adding a lot of rear arrow weight, which greatly affects achieving a high FOC.

IMO, high FOC is a good thing and it will offset lots of issues that bare shafting seems to promote.  Which is why I spent the time to go through how I arrive at high FOC and why I feel there is no need at all for bare shafting, or paper tuning or any of that other arrow tuning stuff.    

So again, experiment by stripping off all that rear arrow weight (which stiffens spine even more), add a LOT of up front weight.  In the long run, yer arrows may just be too high a spine to begin with - it took me too long and too many dollars to finally figure out that carbons work best (fly best, for me) with really weak spined shafts.  Totally the opposite of alums and woodies.  

Again, this is what works for me, and that's all that matters.  Good luck and YMMV.

[bigcountry]

Originally posted by Rob DiStefano:

Originally posted by bigcountry:
[qb]  

Originally posted by Rob DiStefano:
[qb]
I have no problems with bare shafting, I just don't have a personal need for it, nor do I believe it is all that necessary.  

I talked about bare shafting because you used that process in your arrow tuning and all that you do with arrow tuning can affect FOC - particularly since you stated your bare shafting indicated a need for adding a lot of rear arrow weight, which greatly affects achieving a high FOC.

IMO, high FOC is a good thing and it will offset lots of issues that bare shafting seems to promote.  Which is why I spent the time to go through how I arrive at high FOC and why I feel there is no need at all for bare shafting, or paper tuning or any of that other arrow tuning stuff.    

So again, experiment by stripping off all that rear arrow weight (which stiffens spine even more), add a LOT of up front weight.  In the long run, yer arrows may just be too high a spine to begin with - it took me too long and too many dollars to finally figure out that carbons work best (fly best, for me) with really weak spined shafts.  Totally the opposite of alums and woodies.  

Again, this is what works for me, and that's all that matters.  Good luck and YMMV. [/b]

Ok, let me get this right.  If you have a setup, and your broadheads are consistently hitting to the right or left.  You don't bother to find out why or adjust things a bit or try a different arrow or brace hieght?  You just blindly shoot em?  

I don't see anyone saying high FOC is bad.  So again, not sure what the issue is here on this post.  I am desiring higher FOC.  But if I take said bow, and shoot what you say, my Broadheads will miss the target to the right.  I am a hunter, I can't have that.  

Do you shoot a 66lb bow?

[Rob DiStefano]

Ok, let me get this right.  If you have a setup, and your broadheads are consistently hitting to the right or left.  You don't bother to find out why or adjust things a bit or try a different arrow or brace hieght?  You just blindly shoot em?  

IMO - when fletched arrows with field points don't fly well (assuming my form isn't an issue!), I rethink my arrow and bow setup, and make the proper changes for the better - and for me, typically the problem is with the shaft.  Sticking on broadheads might change the dynamics of arrow flight and that needs to be addressed separately.

I don't see anyone saying high FOC is bad.  So again, not sure what the issue is here on this post.  I am desiring higher FOC.  But if I take said bow, and shoot what you say, my Broadheads will miss the target to the right.  I am a hunter, I can't have that.  

It sounds like you think I'm against high FOC - not at all true.  IMO, high FOC is Very Good and desirable. I want at least 20% and currently I'm up at 27%.

Do you shoot a 66lb bow?

No - why do you think that should matter?  As long yer selecting carbons for holding weights above 30#, the draw weight don't mean diddly.  What counts is finding the right shaft that'll work for you and yer bow(s).  It's not rocket science, and never take the shaft manufacturer's recommendations as gospel.

....

[bigcountry]

Originally posted by Rob DiStefano:
 

No - why do you think that should matter?  As long yer selecting carbons for holding weights above 30#, the draw weight don't mean diddly.  What counts is finding the right shaft that'll work for you and yer bow(s).  It's not rocket science, and never take the shaft manufacturer's recommendations as gospel.

.... [/b]

Ok, I see now.  Because it was never an issue with the typical everyday 45-58# bows.  I never had issues with FOC. Most carbons are .4" spined.  And just about any combo can get you over 15% FOC.

So in your case, I can see why its not an issue, or your having trouble understanding what I am saying.  But when you go to heavy setups like 66#, now its an issue.  Now, you get weak reactions. BH's and field point all hit to the right.  Basically flight sucks.  But in your case its hard to see because you don't shoot these heavy bows.

Bottom line is, if you did shoot heavy bows, you would not be able to dil dally around and just throw on heads as easy and go shooting.  I know you would never believe me, just ask just about any good bowmaker.

I never have to address BH POI and Field tip POI, separately as you do.  But from what you write, its clear why you would have too.  Clear to me.  Different strokes and all

And one more time, this post has nothing to do with what you answered.  I was strickly for those who face the issues of low FOC with a heavy bow like this.  If you don't, don't worry about it.