Help tune my arrows (pics)

[amicus]

 
 

These pics were taken at 15yrds. Im using beman ICS 400s with 300 grains up front. Cut to 30 3/4. The following pics were taken at 30yrds. Big difference. It was hard to get the bareshafts to hit the target. At 30yrds they would plane badly to the right and low.

 

 

 

I added 50 grains to one arrow and got much better flight at 30yrds. The arrow hit hard and straight. I think I should bump the weight up 50 grains and start all over. What do ya'll think. Thanks. Gilbert

[vermonster13]

Are you right or left handed? What is the bow and it's specs? How far are you drawing?

[amicus]

Im right handed and shooting a bob lee 63# at 29"

Gilbert

[JC]

Fourth and fifth pics show shafts that are way too weak. Are your arrows exactly the same except for fletching?

[TimZeigler]

Weak spine.  lighten your point way to see if they move towards center if so, shorten your shafts to stiffen them with your desired point weight.  Tim

[amicus]

Do you think that at 15 yrds they are ok but at 30 are showing weak?

[JC]

Nope...they are not ok at 15 yards either. It's hard to tell from your 15 yard groups, but it seems clear from the 30 yard differences.

[amicus]

Thanks guys, will do some shooting when I get home and repost. Gilbert

[vermonster13]

All but one fletched shaft is showing stiff. The bares are kind of all over the place. Are you getting riser contact?

[JC]

Can't agree with you there Dave...I think the 4th and 5th pics are pretty dramatically weak if he's right handed. If they were stiff the bare shafts would be to the left of the fletched arrows, no matter where the arrows landed, at least, in my experience.

I assumed since he said he was having a hard time getting the bareshafts to stay on the target because of the low right planing he adjusted his aiming point for the fletched shafts.

Gilbert, Dave has a point with riser contact, can cause some funky results but you would hear the "tic" pretty plainly in most instances. You didn't mention that in the PM's so I assumed again that was not a problem.

Course, you know what they say about "assume"   :rolleyes:

[vermonster13]

JC I assume he is aiming for the blue/orange dots. Where those arrows are landing is showing stiff.

[amicus]

I am aiming for the blue/orange dot on both the 15 and 30 yrd shots. I don't think that I have a problem with riser contact. I am canting the bow. Should I be holding straight?

[vermonster13]

Always bareshaft with the bow straight up and down.

[amicus]

JC, I just reread you last post. I would shoot my fletched arrows first and then the bare shafts. On the 30 yrd shots, the fletched arrows would fly good. I had to adjust my aiming  for the bare shafts.

[JC]

Dave and I will just have to disagree on this one. In my opinion, according to the info you have given, I think the shafts are too weak. Bare shafts to the right of the fletched shaft when the fletched shaft lands close to point of aim = weak shaft. In my experience, fletched shafts will not walk across the target as bare shafts will: as long as you are not getting rebound off the riser, the bareshaft will always land to the right of fletched if too weak and to the left of fletched if too stiff (for a right handed shooter). In my experience, the fletched shaft is always the baseline, it will almost always be close to point of aim just with potentially lots of "wagging" in flight....the relation of the bareshaft group to those fletched shafts determines weak/stiff indicators. If my fletched arrows are landing way to the left of the bareshafts either I'm getting riser contact or I am not gripping the bow properly.

Again just looking at the 4th and 5th pics (because they are the most obvious), if the bareshafts are also landing that much lower than fletched, I'd also lower the nock at the same time too so your are closer in the ballpark.

If you cant, lowering the nock will change the impact point slightly left right as well as up down. I bareshaft with the same cant I shoot with, everything the same as I hunt/shoot with to get the tune I want for those situations.

Your mileage may vary but this is how it works for me.

[vermonster13]

My thoughts go like this when I see his pics. At 15 yards his arrows are showing stiff, everything is left for the most part, bare and fletched. The fletched are even farther left at 30. The bare appear to be showing weak, but I think it may be more of a shooting issue than anything else from the way the 15s group. Looks like he's dropping his bow arm to see where they're going to hit.

[amicus]

Thanks vermontster and JC, I did not get a chance to shoot last night. I have had some shoulder problems and I seem to get a little weak after I shoot a while. So, V13 your probably right about me droping my bow arm some. I did have some good shots with my fletched arrows that were within an inch of the aimed spot,at 30 yrds, but my bare shafts were way off, low and right. With your observations what would be your next step? I know if the arrow is weak I can shorten the arrow. Right now they are at 30 3/4, my draw is at 29" I don't want to go shorter than 29 3/4. JC, do you think that cutting off an inch would be enough to correct the weak shaft or should I go with a stiffer arrow. V13, if I have a stiff shaft I can add more weight. I did have one other arrow, besides my test arrows, that I added 50 grains, at 30 yrds, that arrow flew pretty straight and I was a lot closer to my aiming spot. I should be able to do some shooting to night and I will post more pics tomorrow. I really appreciate everyones help. I love this site. Gilbert

[Diamond Paul]

Cutting a 1/4" at a time is often advised on carbons, as they seem to be fairly sensitive to length changes; you can get too stiff in a hurry cutting off larger amounts.  That shaft is probably going to work somewhere around 30", based on what the pics show.

[vermonster13]

If you added 59 grains and they got closer then you're arrows are stiff. I am going by the facts that you are very new, your 15 yard groups are showing stiff(I honestly don't believe you have shot enough for your 30 yard groups to mean much yet other than the fletched are going way left). I still think your shafts are stiff for your set-ups.

Shoot at 10 bare shaft, 15 then 20 and see how the bares group in relation to where you are aiming. Leave the fletched shafts for when you have a better idea of stiff or weak. I wouldn't cut anything yet and would play with point weights first to see how they change points of impact then work on other tuning methods with the arrows.

[JC]

Dave and I approach it differently. I say always shoot the fletched shafts first. Do they land at or near point of aim? If close, continue aiming at the same spot, shooting the bareshafts. The relation of the bareshafts to the fletched will determine if it's weak or stiff, and does so every single time in my yard. If your bareshaft is point on and your fletched are 6" to the left, something is amiss: the 12gr difference on the rear of the arrow (that's about what most 3x5" weight) is not going to move the fletched arrow that far left. If your fletched arrows are landing 4" left of aim and your bareshaft are 4" right, something is amiss with your shooting, you must resolve that first before you can really get your arrows tuned well.

I will need you to have clearer explanation of your pics to give you further advice. It seems from your post after my last that you indeed intentionally grouped your fletched arrows in the upper left just to get your bareshafts to stay on the target. As paul said, cut in very, very small increments...an inch is too much, you will frequently go from way weak to way stiff within an inch.