Something finally learned about Tillering...

[Shredd]

Most of my bows that I had made have good arrow flight...  Every now and then I would get a high nock flight...  All of these years I have heard bowyers talk of tillering and limb timing so that the limbs bottomed out at the same time...  I was told this will give you better performance and less vibration and less noise...  I have talked to bowyers and seen bowyers on forums talk about tiller and the general rule was even tiller for three under and positive tiller for split finger... Two bowyers that I respected said, he does all his bows 1/16" positive tiller and the other said he just makes all his even tiller...

  I always thought about limb timing because that is what I was taught...  This thing always bothered me because I knew in my heart that there was more to this and the answer was always out of my grasp... It was frustrating for me so I just settled on the norm or the standard...  I made all my bows with mostly 1/16" positive tiller and some even tiller...  I just figured that I would not be that far off and just settled for that and did not research it any more...  It still bothered me but I knew that one day the answer would come to me...

UNLESS I MISSED SOMETHING, NOT ONE TIME DID ANYONE MENTION TILLER AND HOW IT EFFECTS ARROW FLIGHT...!!!

  My most recent bow had nock high arrow flight... I got sick of not knowing exactly why but I knew it had something to do with tiller... I decided to research it more and felt that Roy's tillering technique would be the answer...  I also knew in my heart that just because you try to make perfectly matching limbs, they are still not perfect and in a perfect world if the limbs are drawn back evenly they should bottom out evenly...  Well this is not a perfect world and one limb could be a hair thicker than the other and be stiffer and return to brace faster...  So static tiller at brace may not be the answer...  Dynamic tillering is needed...  With my 3 pc. bow I decided to use Roy's method of tillering...  As a base line and just wanted to see what the limbs were doing... So I centered the bow and put the hook in the middle...  The hook drifted south, to the bottom limb...  KABOOM...!!!  IT ALL MADE SENSE NOW...  MYSTERY SOLVED... When the string is gonna return to brace the nocking point is going to take an upward path sending the arrow nock high...

   It took a while but I finally figure it out...  Mystery solved.... It was right in front of my face but sometimes it takes time and chance to finally understand...  Just like when you were a kid and your Dad would say, "I would not do that if I were you"...  And years later you finally understood why...  Which leads me to another point... My philosophy in life is not to believe or dis-believe anything you are told, but to take in the information and later on use it down the line when you finally understand it and find out if the info is true or false...  I always held onto Roy's info and through my own process I figured out how to understand it and use it...  On the other hand I have been led astray a few times and took in false information that I thought was true because it came from an experienced bowyer...  So what it gets down to is that everyone has their own learning process and learning experience and what works for one may not work for another or someone could just be full of their own BS and not even know it... In my mind your job is to find the best, correct and true path that you can and produce the best quality that you can with what you have learned...

   

[Pat B]

I would think nock high arrow flight has more to do with nock point height than tiller.

[Shredd]

   I just want to add one more thing... 

   I feel that Today is the day that I have Graduated to being a full fledged Bowyer...  I now have learned and mastered all of the basics of making a glass bow...  It only took me about 6 to 7 years...     And there is still so much more that I still crave to learn...

   It may sound cocky to some, declaring myself as an Accomplished Bowyer but then is it not humble to wait 6 to 7 years to make that claim...??

       Feeling Good....   

[Shredd]

I would think nock high arrow flight has more to do with nock point height than tiller.

   Combination of both...  Setting nock height is the final tweaking... The bow tiller like it was, would basically only give me nock high flight...  If I lowered the nocking point to get better flight it would either be too close to the shelf and or start bouncing off it, giving me nock high and also an erratic flight... Like Roy said, if I was raise my rest I would get better flight...  But I want to keep the rest close to my hand... So I just switched the limbs on the riser and I am getting way better flight...

[Bowjunkie]

I've been mentioning how tiller, or more accurately, dynamic balance (limb strength balanced relative to the archer's fulcrums) affects arrow flight, vibration, and noise for at least 15 years, maybe 20. I taught Roy... once he was ready to listen.  Right buddy? Lol

You're on the right track Shredd, but there's more... if you predetermine the nock point height, then actually do balance the limb's strengths relative to your holds, you won't have to move the nock point afterwards. It will be right. For you. No issues to 'fix' or mask by moving it. You should expect the first arrow off each new bow to fly with purpose... not porpoise.

[Bowjunkie]

Experienced bowyers? Hmmm. Well if a bowyer, ANY bowyer anywhere, tells me "He tillers all his bows (X) positive because"... I'm done listening already. I don't tiller any of my bows to a predetermined tiller measurement. That's a guess... at best.

I set my nock point at 3/8" above perpendicular to the shelf, which barely elevates the arrow 1/16 or so, then set my tree up to replicate my fulcrums, and balance the strength of the limbs. I don't even bother measuring the tiller at brace until it's complete and ready to go outside and shoot it in.... and then only measure bows of natural materials as a baseline to know whether the tiller shifts with use. And guess what..... when a bow is dynamically balanced, there's much less chance that'll happen too.

[Roy from Pa]

Ah come on Bowjunkie, you know darn well I taught you..

LOL

Thanks for the lessons, Jeff..

I'm proud of ya Rich.

Your going to be an even better shot now and a better bowyer..

 

[Pat B]

Is this one of those"everyone gets a trophy for participating" things. If so, I want one too. 

[willi]

You're on the right track Shredd, but there's more... if you predetermine the nock point height, then actually do balance the limb's strengths relative to your holds, you won't have to move the nock point afterwards. It will be right. For you. No issues to 'fix' or mask by moving it. You should expect the first arrow off each new bow to fly with purpose... not porpoise.

So once the limbs timing and the nockpoint on the string are established, the other challenge is to have a consistent pressurepoint with the bow hand, ie, a repeatable grip?

[Bowjunkie]

If the grip is supported on the tillering tree so it cannot tip, and limb strength is balanced so the hook, placed at the string hand fulcrum position, comes straight down without wandering off toward a stronger limb, that's pretty good limb balance, and the bow will pull nice and even into the relaxed bow hand so there's little challenge to a consistent, repeatable grip.

If instead someone wanted to know exactly where the pivot point was, or wanted to apply more pressure low or high, they could place something under the grip that allows it to pivot. Then that pivot could be moved left or right until the bow balanced when drawn, or placed where wanted, then limb strength adjusted as needed to achieve balance.

I cut the end off of a big double cut halfround file for this.

[Longcruise]

I cut the end off of a big double cut halfround file for this.

I felt like I was following until this.  Can you explain more about this?

[Mad Max]

If the grip is supported on the tillering tree so it cannot tip, and limb strength is balanced so the hook, placed at the string hand fulcrum position, comes straight down without wandering off toward a stronger limb, that's pretty good limb balance, and the bow will pull nice and even into the relaxed bow hand so there's little challenge to a consistent, repeatable grip.

If instead someone wanted to know exactly where the pivot point was, or wanted to apply more pressure low or high, they could place something under the grip that allows it to pivot. Then that pivot could be moved left or right until the bow balanced when drawn, or placed where wanted, then limb strength adjusted as needed to achieve balance.

I cut the end off of a big double cut halfround file for this.

http://buildyourownbow.com/the-truth-about-bow-balance/

[willi]

If the grip is supported on the tillering tree so it ................I cut the end off of a big double cut halfround file for this.

Thanks Jeff,

http://buildyourownbow.com/the-truth-about-bow-balance/
nice reference link, Mark.

[Bowjunkie]

I saw that web page years ago. It's frustrating to me. He stopped short and missed a good opportunity to learn and show others what it takes to achieve balance. He should have taken the next critical step and weakened the appropriate limb to balance the bow. He never actually showed what it takes to balance it, and instead made assumptions based on conventional wisdom... which is often wrong.

Perhaps he intended to, maybe even tried to and it made it worse, so that's why he didn't include it... THE most important part.

[Roy from Pa]

Is this one of those"everyone gets a trophy for participating" things. If so, I want one too. 

LOL Pat.. Pay attention young man and you might get a trophy:)

Rich you just opened the door to limb timing and you will excel with, I'm positive about that, knowing how you are..

[Bowjunkie]

After some experimenting I ended up with a flat insert that drops down into the tillering tree cradle, and the end of a double cut file to use as the pivot point. I used that because it's curved and has teeth that grip the wood. That's fine on a roughed in bow, but when it's sanded and closer to finished, and more balanced so there's less chance of it slipping anyway, I just lay a little piece of leather over it to protect the wood. Sandpaper glued to the insert ensures the pivot won't move or kick out at a critical time.

[Bowjunkie]

A few more

[Mad Max]

I saw that web page years ago. It's frustrating to me. He stopped short and missed a good opportunity to learn and show others what it takes to achieve balance. He should have taken the next critical step and weakened the appropriate limb to balance the bow. He never actually showed what it takes to balance it, and instead made assumptions based on conventional wisdom... which is often wrong.

Perhaps he intended to, maybe even tried to and it made it worse, so that's why he didn't include it... THE most important part.

I agree, I was looking for the second page to continue reading
 

[Roy from Pa]

Now ya see where I got mentored at..

Jeffs bow.

My bow.

[Longcruise]

Thanks Bowjunkie.  That clarifys it.   

Im too much about getting things perfect and I'm still trying to visualize how to get the perfect push up position. 

I was left hanging with the Thorne illustration too but it's a good understanding of the basics.