Bareshaft tuning help - Update

[ArthursParadox]

Hello and thanks for taking a minute to help me out.  I am looking for some advice/direction on how to proceed.  Long story short: bow is a Wild Horse Creek Hawk.  56# @28.  My DL is 28 1/4. Shooting Black Eagle Traditional 500's cut to 28.5 with 75 gr insert and 200 gr points.  Shoots darts fletched.  Arrow goes where I point. Fixed crawl with point on at 20 yards  I have only been shooting trad for about 4 months but I shoot daily. Started at 40 lbs and then went to 44, 50 and now shooting the 56 comfortably.  Form feels good. I felt good enough to rip some fletchings of one of my arrows and check out bareshaft flight, as this will be my hunting setup this season.  Bareshaft landing slightly nock high but showing weak (landing about 6-8 inches right of fletched every time.   I thought "dang, ill have to get lighter broadheads" so I went down in point weight to see if I could get them hitting same spot.  Maybe I'm crazy but every time I went down in point weight the bareshaft went further and further right...hmmm, ok, maybe I'm confused, so I went up to 225 thinking it would go the other way but nope.  Still consistently hits 6-8 inches to the right.

Fleched arrow still shoots like a lazer and hits where I aim.  Looking for your thoughts on how to proceed.  Should I be worried about  being weak bareshaft? Should I be happy with my fletched arrow flight and leave it be or  Should I buy some 400s and start fresh?.  I would prefer to use my 200 gr broadheads (I have a ton of single bevels from my compound setup so if going to 400s will give me better flight I will happily purchase.

Thanks for any and all advise/suggestions.

[Walnut]

Im expiring the same exact thing...  Im shooting a hoyt satori,  My bare shafts are constantly hitting about 6" right of my fletched arrows....  I have a 125 gr tip + 50 weight on back of inserts,   then i shoot 100 grain tip,  145, then 175 and they all act pretty much the same....  So Confusing!!!

[ArthursParadox]

Sorry to hear that., @walnut  Hopefully one of us figures it out and it helps the other.  I was struck with a pretty good migraine today and wasn't able to do much.  I did pick up some good ideas from the string blur thread and hope to be able to check out my sight picture tomorrow.   If you haven't read that thread yet, check it out

[Walnut]

I will look at that...  I just wonder if i should be happy with the results im getting but its hrad to when i see and here of guys getting such good results of bare shafts and fletched grouping together.

[McDave]

From your description of your problem, you may have to look past bare shaft tuning to find your solution.  It appears that something may be interfering with the expected flight characteristics of your bare shaft or fletched arrow.  I think we can rule out false weak, as I would have guessed a .400 spine based on your setup.  There may be quill interference on either your fletched arrows or your bare shaft (if you leave quills on your bare shaft, as I do).  I have solved similar problems in the past by adjusting brace height, varying finger pressure on the string, the string itself, silencer location, type of string grip, strike plate and shelf rest material and position, arrow nock fit, and brand or diameter of the arrow. You have another wildcard: your fixed crawl.  You might want to see if the bow will tune first without the fixed crawl, as that was how it was designed.  Lots of possibilities when a bow won't react as expected to the usual bare shaft tuning changes of point weight, arrow length, etc.

[McDave]

The other thing I should have mentioned, actually before anything else, is that bare shaft tuning is only meaningful if the shooter's form is consistent.  It doesn't have to be textbook perfect, but unless a person can consistently group arrows at 20 yards, bare shaft tuning is a waste of time.

[JC Jr]

Out of spine arrows will shoot down the middle--bare shafts, not so much.

First thing to remember is, arrow and bare shaft group tuning doesn't lie.  It'll give you immediate feedback as to what is going on.  Follow what it tells you and you'll get there; follow what you think and you'll get frustrated.

Your shafts are acting weak, soooooooooo .... what is the solution?

[ArthursParadox]

Thanks everyone.  In preparation of what the bareshaft is telling me I did order a couple 400 spine and 340 spine arrows.
  I was planning on lowering brace height first though and see what happens. For the record form is mostly consistent
  Good groups at twenty when everything feels smooth.  Softball sized.  If the shoot doesn't feel good I  don't use it.

Shelf and Strikeplate are same material as the grip wrap, some kind of ostrich skin or something
   Seems just a tad stiff to me.

No quilt on bareshaft but will leave on the next one for added weight in back

Nock fit seems good.  Slight click on but easy.  I will experiment with those as well while I wait for new arrows.

[ArthursParadox]

Also I will go back to 3 under and see if that helps. I can't promise I'll stay ther long though.  Fixed crawl is where I found my accuracy.

[McDave]

Also I will go back to 3 under and see if that helps. I can't promise I'll stay ther long though.  Fixed crawl is where I found my accuracy.

I wasn't suggesting you give up on the fixed crawl; I wouldn't think of hunting any other way, now that I’ve learned how to use it.  If it were me, and I could tune the bow with with my string grip in the normal location but not in the fixed crawl location, I would be more likely to just accept it as a peculiarity of that particular bow, whereas if I couldn't tune it in either position, I would keep looking for the reason.

FWIW, I generally find that all I need to do to change the tune from the regular string grip position to the fixed crawl position is raise the nock point about 1/8”, because the bare shaft typically shows nock low when I grip the string at the fixed crawl position.  This makes sense to me, because raising the nock point also raises the finger location for the fixed crawl, and thus brings it a little closer to the normal position.

[ArthursParadox]

Update:  while I'm waiting to try out some stiffer arrows I took the advise above regarding trying other changes and lowered the brace height. Immediate improvement.  Brace was 7 1/4" I ended up at just a smidgen shy of 6 7/8" . Lowered tip weight 25 grains and now consistently grouping well and bareshaft arrow Flys true. All going where I want.  Now, what to do with all these 400s coming?   

Thank you all for your help.  I will continue to tinker and I am happy to keep reading and learning here.

Side note: does anyone use different insert weight to have different weight broadheads in their quiver?  I do itwith compounds and was planning on trying it with longbow.  Wondering if the different lengths of broadheads will have a big effect on aiming?

Thanks again guys.  Feeling confident again

[McDave]

People add weight both ways: either as heavier broadheads or as inserts.  Be aware that the further back in the shaft the inserts go, the less the effect will be on dynamic spine.  Since the part of the shaft with the insert inside is essentially inflexible, you are effectively shooting a heavier point weight on a shorter shaft, so the effects cancel each other out, to some degree or another.

[McDave]

Coincidentally, I had an example of this yesterday.  I was comparing two bare shafts, both GT .500 spine Ultralights with 145 grain points.  One had a 20 grain internal weight behind the insert, and the other one a 50 grain weight.  The one with 20 grains was consistently showing weaker than the one with 50 grains.  I checked the static spine of both shafts on my spine tester, and both were identical as far as I could tell.  They were marked in such a way that I could shoot them without knowing which was which until I pulled them out of the target.  I have to conclude that the extra length the 50 grain weight extended behind the insert more than offset the extra weight.

I had already known that there had to be some offset, as I noted above, but I had not known that the offset could be more than 100%!  I think that in order to get the full effect on spine of a weight increase at the point end of a bare shaft, all the increase has to be either a heavier point, or if it is internal, the shaft length has to be longer by the length of the internal weight.