probably an age old question...

[kenboonejr]

Ok so this is what I want to do.  I want to learn to shoot out to 30 yards instinctively, intuitively, whatever you want to call it.  The idea being that I want my brain to figure out how my body needs to be positioned when I release that arrow with doing nothing more than what folks are stating as intensley focusing on my target.  I don't want to gap shoot, string walk or any other methods that requires me to estimate the distance before the shot.  I want to be able to shoot and hit my target without knowing the distance.  I have watched a lot of youtube videos including all of Jeff Kavanaughs videos as well as others so I know it can be done, plus years ago, I hunted with an individual that had the ability to shoot this way out to like 60 yards.  So I know it can be done.

So having said all that I have a plan and I know there are so many variables out there and everyone is different.  But my plan is to shoot at least 30 arrows, preferablly 60 or more almost every day.  I'll obviously miss some days, because of rain, work, whatever.  I have shot compound bows for 35+ years and have dabbled into shooting a traditional bow about 10 years ago, but I was over-bowed at the time and it didn't work out.   I am one month into this plan, and have shot a little over 1000 arrows so far.  Some of those shots are blind shots with my eyes closed so I can strictly focus on form, reaching full anchor etc..    My first 20 days or so I was just shooting at about 8 yards or so, but after that I started shooting from 5 - 20 yards and basically changing my position after each shot or maybe 2 shots.  A couple of days after I made that change to my routine, I noticed an improvement.   Not like I can go shoot a deer at this point or anything close, but rather like 20% of my shots are close to the aim point no matter the distance, whereas before that it was every now and then, and I was just glad to hit the bag target.  The other thing I can do now is explain why I made a bad shot when I make a bad shot.  I feel like my biggest hurdle is reaching consistency in my shot cycle, form, anchor, grip, release..  It's just hard to think about all of those things and focus on the target in the beginning - that is one reason I shoot blind for some of my shots.

So continued on with this plan which I am sure will evolve over time, I am thinking I will have shot somewhere around 10,000 arrows by next hunting season.  If I can keep this level of shooting activity up continuing to work on my form, etc.. , do you think my brain will have figured things out where I would have enough skill to hunt deer next year with my recurve?  Meaning I can hit a 6 inch circle consistently out to 20-30 yards from the ground and from the tree.  How realistic are these expectations? 

I know it is hard to gauge because this is different for everyone, and I have a read a ton of folks say give up this idea and learn to gap shoot, string walk, whatever, but I really want to be able to do this instinctively/intuitively.   That is just what I want to do.  Given my plan what are my odds of being good enough to hunt this way next year?  And I know its just opinions but I would really like to hear them from those of you who shoot this way.

Thank you.

[McDave]

I think your goal is realistic.  There are many people who aim instinctively and can shoot accurately out to 30 yards.  Your persistence in shooting many arrows per day is a good thing, as long as you don't injure yourself in the process. 

You mentioned that “I feel like my biggest hurdle is reaching consistency in my shot cycle, form, anchor, grip, release.”  Some of these things you can probably teach yourself by watching internet videos or reading books.  However, there are probably some other things where you could use a little help.  We all have things we are aware of, and can change on our own, and other things we are not aware of and and are difficult to change even when someone else points them out. 

For example, in a Rod Jenkins class one time there was a fellow student who didn't realize he was picking up his head when he released the shot.  Even after Rod Jenkins told him he was picking up his head, and the rest of the class could see him do it too, he couldn't feel himself do it.  I think that Rod finally held his hand on the guy's head and then the guy could feel himself move his head, and then he could start working on not doing it. 

Another example I have run across many times are people who torque their bow or string and don't realize it.  I explain to them about not twisting their hands when they draw the bow and and the next time they draw the bow they do it again, because it doesn't feel to them like they are twisting the string.  Then it is necessary to do a few exercises to enable them to be aware of their hands twisting the string.

These are just two of possibly a hundred examples of ways it is possible to do things incorrectly, or inconsistently, without knowing it, or being able to correct them even after someone explains it to you.  None of these things are difficult to solve once you understand the problem and gain the awareness to feel what you're doing incorrectly, but they are things that are difficult to recognize and correct on your own.

Another thing you mentioned is, “It's just hard to think about all of those things and focus on the target.”  This one has a simpler answer, which is, don't worry about it!  Nobody gets a free ride; we all have to think about the things we have learned until our muscle memory takes over.  Don't try to rush the process; think about everything you need to do every time you take a shot, and don't worry about hitting the target.  When it is time, you won't have to think about any of that stuff and you'll be able to focus whatever attention you need on the target.

[kenboonejr]

McDave,
Thank you very much for your input.  I am glad to know that the goal seems realistic.  One caveat you did say though is as long I don't injure myself.  Do you think that is too much shooting?  Would I be better off to scale back?  I say that because I have had two shoulder surgeries in the last few years, left shoulder surgery, then a slap tear after that on the left shoulder about 8 months later, then I had surgery on my right shoulder this past January.  The bow I made came in at 47# at 28" and I have a 29" draw so I figure I'm probably doing 49 -50# at my draw.  I'm hoping to build another bow after Christmas and was thinking of doing a lighter one just for tons of practice.   

I understand exactly what you are saying about these issues that I might not be able to recognize.  I guess the only way to resolve this is with the aid of someone who knows what is supposed to happen watching me.  I guess that is the hard part.  I don't know anyone around me that shoots. 

I will take that advice about not worrying and start going through a mental checklist of each part of my shot process until it is second nature.
Thank you again for your input.  I am glad to hear I just may have an achievable goal!

[McDave]

One caveat you did say though is as long I don't injure myself.  Do you think that is too much shooting?  Would I be better off to scale back?  I say that because I have had two shoulder surgeries in the last few years, left shoulder surgery, then a slap tear after that on the left shoulder about 8 months later, then I had surgery on my right shoulder this past January.

I would imagine you had physical therapy in conjunction with your shoulder surgeries.  If possible, you should work with your physical therapist to develop a long range plan that will keep your rotator cuff muscles strong so you can continue to shoot on a regular basis.  Just shooting won't help your rotator cuff muscles; in fact, it could increase the risk of further injuring them.

I can't tell you how many arrows, or what poundage bow you can shoot without risk of further injury.  I can tell you that you can accomplish everything you want to accomplish shooting 25-30 arrows per day.  I assume what you want to accomplish is hunting accuracy.  If you want to shoot in a 100 arrow tournament, then you need to be able to shoot 100 arrows without getting too tired.  If you want to hunt, you need to be able to shoot one arrow accurately.  I would imagine you could kill whatever you want to kill shooting 45# at your draw length.  You're already used to shooting 49-50#, so I see no reason why you need to reduce your bow weight below 45#.

What would solve all your problems about unknown form issues would be to attend a class with Rick Welch.  He is the best instinctive shooter I have ever heard of, and teaches his classes near his home in Little Rock, Arkansas. His classes aren't cheap, but he would be able to quickly identify everything you need to work on, and put you in a position where 25-30 arrows a day would be all you need to get where you want to go.

[kenboonejr]

Thanks again Dave for you feedback.  Fortunately, neither shoulder surgery was due to a torn rotator cuff.  I developed bone spurs in my left shoulder, that after dealing with for a couple of years just got to the point where it was sore and ached through the night to sleep on and then started to hurt when working out.  About a year after the left shoulder healed, the right one started getting to that point as well.  Right shoulder was also bone spurs being removed.  What you have told me has me very encouraged because yes my goal is to develop hunting accuracy and to have fun shooting and that's about it.  I will take a look at Rick's class, cause perhaps the sooner I do something like that, the quicker I will be on path to achieve my goal.

[Sam McMichael]

I've been trying to gain proficiency out tp 30 yds. as well. I don't gap or string walk. It is still very much a work in process for me. One thing I have discovered is that practicing form is very important at that distance, as any mistake is amplified greatly.

[kenboonejr]

I appreciate the info guys.  I am encouraged.  This is something I have wanted to do forever but knew I just didn't have the time to put the necessary practice in to achieve the goal.  I think there is just something eloquent about being able to shoot a bow and hit your target without the aid of anything else.  Not that there is anything wrong with any other method as I have said been a compound shooter my whole life, but this is my goal and I really hope to achieve it.

[mgf]

Regardless of aiming style a fairly "flat" shooting bow has a trajectory such that it'll put you in the boiler room without any distance estimation out to "near" 30 yards. A few inches above or below point of aim still puts you on target...on deer sized game.

30 yards is a little far for me but I have a fixed crawl set up on my current hunting bow and there are only two distances. The two distances are close enough and too far. From 5 yards out to about 25 yards I put the point of the arrow on the target.

I have to be a little more discerning when shooting squirrels and of course when shooting much longer distances but that's not the usual case for me.

As a side note...when shooting a setup that doesn't shoot very flat I tend to keep my shots closer in rather than playing games trying to estimate distance to within a yard.

[Todd Cook]

Lots of good advice here. I would add two things: no doubt a goal like that requires a lot of arrows. But focus on quality arrows instead of how many. And this- A REALLY good shooter told me something years ago that has always been true- don't let go of that arrow till you KNOW it's pointed where it needs to be. Sounds ridiculously simple but you'd be surprised how often we release arrows before we should.

[Pine]

It's like playing catch with someone, just throw the ball to them no matter the distance.
And STOP CONSCIOUS THINKING.
Just put the arrow where you want it to go.
And it can help to have a spot on your target, like a small sticker that your eyes are drawn to.
Then someday, you will imagine the spot, even on a  blank paper.
Shooting darts can really get you to understand.
There's no sights or reference points at all.
Another trick, get a lazer pointer and shine it on your target when its pitch black.
All you can see is the dot. Shoot it.

[rhampton]

There is such a thing as "practicing to miss".  Separate form practice from trying to hit a target.  Is your form as perfect for instinctive shooting as possible?  Draw while looking into a mirror.  Before you make any adjustments, is your eye above your arrow?  As McDave mentioned, are you twisting the bowstring with your string fingers.  While looking in the mirror and using your dominant eye as your target in the mirror, slowly come to full draw.  Do you have to move your bowhand out of alignment from a straight line down the arrow shaft to get to your anchor?  When at full draw is your forearm in line with the arrow shaft or is it out to the side, or is your elbow high?  Is your bow at the same cant before you begin your draw as it is when you are at full draw?  Is your head turned towards the target as much as your body configuration will allow, to permit the natural use of the triangulation of your eyes to maximize your ability to judge yardage instinctively when at full draw?  Would you throw a football or baseball with your head turned to the side? Practice form by shooting rubber blunt tipped arrows against a hanging backstop like carpet that is only 10' away, with no target on it so the arrows just drop to the ground.  When practicing to hit, use your imagination and put up a target that will make a noise when hit or bounce or blow up, anything that will make your concentration be 100% on the target when your shoot and not on form.  When taking a shot on game, where is your concentration?  Should it be on your form or 100% on the spot on the animal you intend to hit.  If your are practicing to hit and you are not using proper form, STOP!!!  Have the dicipline to go back to your form practice.  You can use logic to practice form.  Never use logic to try to shoot instinctively.  When you are learning form or correcting problems with your form, use a very light bow so you can do it in slow motion to to see what you are actually doing. I've never met anyone that can shoot arrow after arrow instinctivley in front of a target butt.  If you want to prove you can shoot arrow after arrow accurately, standing in front of a target butt, especially shooting at a paper target, you are setting yourself up for disappointment.  This leads to frustration and resorting to some aiming method.  Do you want to hunt or shoot targets?  Instinctive shooting is not a method for shooting targets for score.

[Part Time Archer]

Never shoot the same distance always vary distance.shoot your draw length arrowsand not over.howard hill style instinctive.

[Part Time Archer]

Shoot 9gpp, mind feather height.

[Sam McMichael]

I hope you are continuing to make progress. Keep this in mind - tremendous progress will not be made overnight, but if you do one thing better today than you did yesterday, things are getting better overall. I don't consciously gap shoot either, but , (and this is my opinion only), the difference between gapping and instinctive is that gapping is conscious and instinctive is unconscious. In other words, we simply develop a mental image of what "looks right". Nonetheless, as you continue to shoot, things will improve further as your muscle memory reinforces the picture of what looks right as you aim. It is good to read of somebody who is doing the time-consuming work required to build the skill set to do this. It encourages me for sure. I'm getting better, but i am not shooting nearly the number of arrows you are. Unfortunately, I can't give technical assistance, but I can certainly encourage your efforts. Keep it up.

[Blacktail42]

Consistent form has always been a high contributor to success but I would go one step further and state that consistent effective form leads to stronger results. In my post about anchor points Todd make the great comment regarding alignment and for myself and I shoot "instinctive" or whatever you want to describe it, solid alignment allows you to shoot from a more confident position. Take a good look at everything you do as you draw the bow, and using video is a fantastic tool. I have caught myself cheating on my form and I can watch my arrow tip to see if I'm collapsing or am I actually pulling when I think I am. Also video does a great job in showing what you are doing after the shot and how you are setting the shot up. My recommendation is to work on each aspect of your shot individually. Each session dedicate it to working on one part of your form.

[Todd Cook]

Sam, I think you're right about conscious with gap vs unconscious with instinct. I switched to gap last year because of left eye trouble( long story) and I am now VERY aware of where my point is. It has done more for my shooting than anything I've ever done. 30 doesn't seem so far anymore. Someone who can not notice the arrow tip and still TRUST the shot can do well. I got to where I didn't trust it after a few bad shots on animals the past couple of years. Using the tip did wonders for my confidence.