Getting the FULL 20 YARDS, pass throughs, female drawlength, and arrow weight.

[Bisch]

Look into Ashby’s studies. Real fact based information on how to get the most penetration for your set up. Good for you shooting 55# a lot of grown men can’t handle that weight lol.

I would be one of those grown men you speak of! Hasn't kept me from being pretty effective with my stickbows!!! I killed the red stag in my avatar with a 49# longbow.

Bisch

[Baylee]

Look into Ashby’s studies. Real fact based information on how to get the most penetration for your set up. Good for you shooting 55# a lot of grown men can’t handle that weight lol.

I would be one of those grown men you speak of! Hasn't kept me from being pretty effective with my stickbows!!! I killed the red stag in my avatar with a 49# longbow.

Bisch

Cool. I saw a man at the mall one time with a purse? Lol

[beendare]

 I hear stories like the OP….and just scratch my head.

 Im blowing through animals with my 47# recurve, 553g 340 spine carbon arrow and 2 blade heads. I couldnt tell you my FOC.  Not just a couple animals …everything. Heck I shot an 800# moose a couple months ago, first shot 30-ish yds….complete pass thru with the fletch hung up on the off side broken rib with the arrow sticking straight out.

The moose does a couple 360’s right there trying to get its nose on the tip of the arrow. It goes down. I run in as its right before dark, the animal struggles to its feet and I bury one 24” in front of the shoulder quartering to me. As the animal gets to its feet then turns broadside, I put another arrow right in the chest complete pass thru on the ground 20’ past. The moose staggers 2 steps and rolls down into a creek DOA.

 I bareshaft tune. I do have a long DL, 31” so I gain energy there but I bet my setup doesnt make 40KE.

I think a guy can take all of this FOC, KE and Momentum stuff the influencers preach and throw it in the trash. ( I will keep it respectful and not tell you what I really think)

Perfect arrow flight with a decent weight arrow and a tapered 2 blade head is a very effective arrow, IME.

Of the 12 animals I’ve shot in the last 2 years with this whimpy setup, moose, hogs, deer and Javelina, I only had a couple in the off side shoulder that didnt pass thru. Ive got 40 years of bowhunting to draw on, seen hundreds of animals die to an arrow- inc some big critters, apx 60 elk, water buff, etc.

OP, something is not right, here are the reasons for poor penetration;

Poor arrow flight ( numero uno)
 underspined arrow
 Inefficient BH ( like a mech or short chisel point head)
BH curling/ breaking/ bending blades
Low energy
Hitting heavy bone

Heck, I shot a couple of med size hogs last summer with my 40#, 375g setup I use for 3d, just to see…..you guessed it pass thrus. ( So this doesnt get misinterpreted, I wouldnt hunt with that setup all the time, Im in the process of tuning a new hunt bow 52-55# limbs and a heavier spined Axis 300)

 Bottom line, a perfect arrow with a 2 blade is an amazing killer….

[Bowguy67]

Look into Ashby’s studies. Real fact based information on how to get the most penetration for your set up. Good for you shooting 55# a lot of grown men can’t handle that weight lol.

Obviously Ashby’s information isn’t all that there is. Note the op problem. Also we’re not shooting Cape buffalo or hippo, whitetail deer, bear, etc don’t need all that. His studies have caused more confusion. Even compound guys think they need certain weights to succeed. My daughter was blowing through deer with a lightweight compound and 85 gr to 100gr head. That’s real world United States information. I’ve shot hundreds of deer and bear and never once stressed about foc never mind efoc. Just irrelevant on our game and thinking so shows someone’s lack of real world experience imo. Take no offense to that, just consider what I’m getting at

I’ll also add the the real men can’t handle 55lbs. Obviously you might be a more recent trad guy? I’m thinking by the way you think. Anyway I bet most these guys know back when no one shot less than 55. In fact to be a PBS regular member you had to shoot at least 50lbs as that was considered a hunting weight. Op don’t confuse the two. You don’t need extreme weight just commenting on a thought here

[cacciatore]

I will try a different set up at least in the lower 48,your arrow looks to be a little too heavy for me and although I understand Asby studies there is a point of not return going too extreme.

[Todd Cook]

I think your point weight is WAY too heavy. I've shot more than several deer with just plain unweighted carbons and they just blow through. In fairness I have a 29" draw but only about 50 pounds at 29". This high FOC thing can be overdone. I also think you have tuning issues. If you really want to get broadheads flying right, shoot them at 35 yards or so. It will really show you how they're flying.

[Baylee]

Most of you are not comprehending the OPs 25.5” draw. You shouldn’t have to be told the difference between a 31 inch draw and 25.5” draw is a lot even shooting the same poundage. Ashby’s studies and reports are exactly the answer to the question asked. NOONE even those of you that have shot  two animals lol have as much experience or have test as much on penetration as he did. Yes there is a lot of confusion on his writings, but that’s mostly poor reading comprehension. You do not need the same setup for Cape buffalo as whitetails in Texas, but the principals are the same. You can maximize penetration of any bow at any weight. The way to maximize it is not “because you think so lol” the tests have been done the proof is there. If you feel like disputing the results you had best get busy, you have a lot of animals to kill and test the results to catch up to Ashby. Or do you expect  we just take your word for it?

[Ronnie Newell]

Likewise, amigo...

[Matagorda]

OP, something is not right, here are the reasons for poor penetration;

Poor arrow flight ( numero uno)
 underspined arrow
Low energy
Hitting heavy bone

Beendare,

It has to be one of the above for me.  My arrow is a 400 spine GT Traditions, and I believed it to be tuned well, I'm going to go back and redo my bareshaft.  Because it was cut so much for me, I figured the spine lowered, but maybe not enough.  I will have to try some 300 spines to see how they fly. 

What do you mean by "low energy"? 

I definitely hit some heavy bone on the pigs, just want to see it break them I guess. 

Thanks for all the help fellas. I appreciate it.

[beendare]

OP, something is not right, here are the reasons for poor penetration;

Poor arrow flight ( numero uno)
 underspined arrow
Low energy
Hitting heavy bone

Beendare,

It has to be one of the above for me.  My arrow is a 400 spine GT Traditions, and I believed it to be tuned well, I'm going to go back and redo my bareshaft.  Because it was cut so much for me, I figured the spine lowered, but maybe not enough.  I will have to try some 300 spines to see how they fly. 

What do you mean by "low energy"? 

I definitely hit some heavy bone on the pigs, just want to see it break them I guess. 

Thanks for all the help fellas. I appreciate it.

Energy;  Your short draw does create some challenges. You can compensate with a slightly heavier arrow like 12GPP  and or more bow#s. You want to stick with 2 blades or tapered 3 blade COC heads as those penetrate effortlessly. I don’t like the 3 to 1 ratio heads as the tips bend easier.  I like the straight 2 blade Magnus Stinger or $5 German Jaeger heads- both good steel that I have touched up and reused.

In your case, you drank the Koolaid on your arrow build. Did you know Ashby’s FOC stuff is not proven with arrows but with rubber bands and soda straws? In fact this is what he uses in his seminars. ( its on Youtube) 

There are some sharp physics guys on some of the archery sites like AT and Trad Talk that have blown huge holes in the Ashby theories. I think it was the  physics guys on the UC Berkeley Archery club that originally called him on his FOC white paper some 25 or so years ago- it defies the laws of physics-  though he kept up doing the rubber band thing- a much different system than a bowstring that puts max energy into that arrow instantly.

Anyway, MY TAKE is to setup a bow that you can easily draw, hold and aim- whatever poundage that is. Guys have been killing animals with an average bow-arrow setup for centuries. A bow heavier than you can hold at FD and aim, one where you are snap shooting and have an inconsistent DL can give you erratic arrow flight- a penetration killer.

Ive shot with snap shooters at 3D tourneys, DL varies by an inch and God bless them- shoot whatever makes you happy…..but this technique is the most inconsistent and least accurate.

Most guys are good with 9-11GPP +/- but a short draw guy like yourself benefits from  12GPP or so. THEN, bare shaft tune that setup for perfect arrow flight. I periodically shoot a bareshaft in practice as a form check.

I’m sure there are guys chuckling that Im hunting with a whimpy 47# bow. Those Uukha limbs are rocket ships, smooth and whisper quiet.  I bet there are some 55#-60# guys not getting the same speeds with my arrow.

I’m 6’3” 240 and can still bench 225#. I can shoot a 70# recurve…but I don’t because I cannot hold a consistent DL with it on a 3d course and At 64 I don’t want the shoulder problems.  I can shoot a whole field round with that bow…and draw it to perfect anchor easily after sitting for 4 hours in a hide. So snicker away, but it works for me….and I have the moose, hog and Coues deer in my freezer to prove it! Grin

. 

 

[Gun]

Has to be something w your arrow set up. I used to shoot low to mid 50# and have shot thru more than one Moose.

I'm waiting for shoulder surgery now. I managed to shoot thru two does this year and shattered the opposite leg just above the elbow joint on a third w only 40# @ 26" draw w a mouth tab. Two blade single bevel on two passthrus. 3 blade on the other.

I'm at 560gr total arrow weight w 210 gr up front. 3" four fletch. Carbon arrow 29% FOC. Also Ranch Fairy disciple.

[Gun]

OOPS!
 I changed FOC. Was looking at wrong set up on my list!

[Baylee]

[quote

In your case, you drank the Koolaid on your arrow build. Did you know Ashby’s FOC stuff is not proven with arrows but with rubber bands and soda straws? In fact this is what he uses in his seminars. ( its on Youtube)
[/quote]

Well that’s a pretty good example of why forums can be a poor place to ask for advice. That is one of the most insane and uninformed statements I’ve seen in quite some time. Ashby’s studies were done with real live animals and recently rifle shot culled animals. Do you really expect him to trot  a full grown Cape buffalo on stage at a seminar to show you penetration tests? Apparently another opinion by someone that hasn’t read the studies, or read them and has no comprehension of what he’s read.
And no, no one has disproven the tests, that’s more fabricated nonsense.

The OP is looking for help with her set up at her draw weight. If you need to be told your 30plus inch draw weight is not relevant to her 25.5” draw you don’t know enough to make a comment about either lol. Apples to oranges comparisons are less than useless. Comparing what someone did with a compound is equally useless. A specific draw weight a specific draw length that is the problem. The solution is not what someone with a 6” longer draw thinks or someone that makes up gibberish thinks lol. There’s already proven ways to increase penetration period. Anyone’s lack of comprehension of the material is not relevant to the problem

[imbowhunt10]

All of us have the setup we believe in, whether it is 450 550 or 750 grains, but laying that aside, your arrow is only going to be as good as the business end. Assuming you have a well tuned arrow, the broadhead has got to be sharp sharp sharp! If not, no matter how good your setup is, it will be compromised.

[Gun]

Yup! ^^^

[Doug S]

 Right now your at just a ted under 14 gr per #. I would listen to Beendare and go 12. With the heads he suggested.
 I saw African spears with a huge weight on the back end of the spear. I think they found it was the way to gain penetration. Hard to control on an arrow. Interesting they didnt have the extra weight up front. The rear weight drove the spear thru. Beendare is doint what you want to do. copy as as best you can.

[Tim Finley]

I shoot 50# at 28 inches I may not pull all 0f 28 so im probably shooting 49 . My arrows are 500 grains total with a 150gr. WW. I went to Africa last summer with this set up and killed 5 animals a warthog,2 Gemsbok, a big Kudu and a Zebra these are all big animals I didnt get any pass throughs or complete penetration and only one animal traveled very far the rest were down in sight  (50yds). All my arrows hit the off shoulder and penetration stopped  It would with any bow weight or arrow. I think your head and total weight are too heavy you not only need weight but you need velocity for more penetration I almost think velocity is more important look how componders shoot through animals with ultra light arrows, crossbows too. 9 to 10 grains per lb. works great

[JamesD]

Lots of conversations going on in this thread. Here is my experience a year into switching to a lighter bow weight and HEAVY arrows. I switched my setup this season to the following. I went from shooting and hunting with a 53-54# BOW at my draw length (30.5") to a 41# bow at 30". It's holding 44# at full draw. I shoot wooden arrows with 300 up front. FOC is 20%. My arrows weigh from 770 to 810 grains depending upon each dozen of them. I took two whitetails with the setup this fall. Complete pass through on the first with the arrow buried 6-8 inches in the ground. Ten yard shot. 780 grain arrow. The second doe was shot at seventeen yards. The arrow broke the humerus bone on impact and penetrated to the twenty inch mark on the shaft. She fell dead within 35 yards of impact. 770 grain arrow. Both deer were quartering or slightly quartering to me when shot. I gave up trajectory that I will never need based on the shots I am willing to take (25 yards and under) while hunting. My arrows are well tuned to my bow, and I don't notice any greater difficulty in shooting this setup at 25 yards and under than when I was shooting 600 grain arrows out of the 53-54# setup. Simple laws of physics have proven that weight is the biggest determining factor for momentum. Especially when you are shooting gear that will not reach 200 FPS. The heavy setup works. If you like lighter arrows, use lighter arrows.  Lighter arrows and setups have killed a lot of stuff. I am not knocking anyone for what they shoot. For me, I am a heavy arrow convert.

[shankspony]

Just a thought, but is there any difference in how many pass throughs you get, and how you hunt? Just wondering if hunting from a tree stand gives you more pass throughs with arrow leaving via a path of less resistance... IE lower with less heavy bone?

[beendare]

Mata,
I have a bunch of old Beman carbon arrows cut short  they gave me when I used to shoot for them. You can have them to experiment with if you like, just ping me and they are yours. I can no longer shoot them.

Regarding setups;
Thankfully, I have many experienced bowhunter friends to share information with. Bowhunters that have killed hundreds of animals, Top pro tournament guys like the ex Montana state champ, a couple guys have the NA slam, a couple guys own archery shops.

Its worth mentioning that none of these guys shoots massive FOC. Not a one. Most shoot an avg weight arrow tuned to perfection as we have all come to the same conclusion- it works!

Massive FOC does not make arrows fly further than another arrow of the same weight as Ashby claimed, it defies the laws of physics. I will put up big money that Sir Isaac Newton was right on that one-grin.

In the end, shoot what works for you…. But as myself and some of the guys above attest to…you don’t need to go way out on the end of the spectrum with your arrow, IME it actually causes problems with arrow flight.

.