Being overbowed - are you overbowed?

[Wilderlife]

Hi all,

I've had plenty of chats with some friends over the last 12 months about shooting heavier bows and being overbowed. I decided to make this video and put it out there to see if it would get some interesting discussion going in the traditional archery community.

Of course, it's been several months since I made the video and I have a lot of other things I'd like to say or bring up but that might be for a follow up video down the line.

For now, I'd love it if anyone who is interested had a look and put some thoughts in this thread. Like I say in the video - I'm no expert and I'm still fairly new to things so take everything with a grain of salt.



Cheers.

[McDave]

I just finished watching your video.  It held my interest from the start to the finish.  You have the communication skills and the archery skills you need to make more of these, if that's the direction you would like to head.

[Deno]

Great topic and video Dylan.  I'm sure you'll get some great responses from the Gang on an often asked question.  Personally, I'm looking for another Howard Hill bow in the mid 70's and that will be my limit.

Good Luck

Deno

[Sam McMichael]

I like the video, but I want to move the discussion to your question about being overbowed. Currently, I am. I recently had back surgery and was just released to shoot the bow a few weeks ago. My hunting weight is 53# at 28", but I only pull 25 " so I'm not actually shooting much poundage. Yet, my conditioning is not yet up to snuff, causing me to tire after 20-30 arrows. The thing that really made me realize I had a way to go is that I have been shooting a 40# bow, (again with consideration for my short draw). I can shoot this one much better, as well as longer, than my regular bow. This leads me to my 2022 archery resolution, which is to get back in better physical condition. Ordinarily I have no problem at all with my regular bow. Time to go to work, because I shoot 3D with that same bow. The big take away for me is how easy it is to get overbowed during a layoff. After all, if I don't do the work, I won't shoot as well as Bisch when I grow up.

[Bisch]

You are a goofball Sam!!! 

Wilderlife, that was a very good video. I shoot a lot of competition and I work at a bowhunting ranch, and I see lots of guys that are obviously overbowed. I have never been able to handle anything even close to what would be considered heavy draw weight. I started out at 50# (I was overbowed myself then). I worked and worked until that 50# was not too much for me, and shot that same weight up till earlier this year. I had a neck injury about 5yrs ago and have never really been “right” since then. Earlier this year I also developed tendinitis in my bow arm. I had to go down in weight to get that under control. After that was fixed I went back up to 46# and was/am shooting much better than before, so that is where I am staying!

Bisch

[GCook]

A question I ask myself all the time.😂

[Todd Cook]

Very well done on the video. And a good topic.   To me your question only has one answer: Am I in control of the bow? As in can I draw it back, hold it on target and release when I want to?  For me on a hunting bow that's about 55 pounds max. 48 or so on my target bow. I can still shoot my 67 pound widow, but I can't control it. So I don't.

[Steelhead]

Being overbowed is a big issue.For both begginers and experienced archers.

When learning to shoot you need to develop good form and good technique.Very hard to do if not impossible with too heavy a bow.Plus you need to practice alot and shoot alot of arrows with the right information and or coaching and put the puzzle together.Hard to do with too heavy a bow.So archers get off to a bad start and ingrain really bad habits that are hard to break and can also lead to target panic issues as well that are extemely aggravating.I would say its a cardinal sin to start of too heavy.

It can happen to experienced archers as well.Like when coming back from injuries,long layoffs or thier getting older etc. and thier shooting thier bows that are now too heavy.Bad habits happen.Short drawing,snap shooting,poor alignment,focus issues,no being able to get to full draw and more.Do that thousands of times and your in a big hole for sure thats hard to climb out of. Its very possible to not be overbowed have major problems from shooting bows for way to long that were too heavy and now even a lighter bow gives you fits that you know you can pull easily.Alot of it can be the bad habits that have been ingained and also psychological and or mental problems related to shooting the bow freely without hangups.

Bottom line you dont want to be overbowed.You want to be in complete control of the whole process from the start of the draw to the anchor and everything in between and finally the release.Being overbowed can screw the whole thing up whether your a begginer or a highly experienced shooter.If your not in complete control you are shooting too much poundage  IMO.That includes physical control and mental control.

[MnFn]

Nice video and great topic.
I started with a light fiberglass bow when I was about eight years old. On my thirteenth birthday, my parents gave me a 40#.
I didn’t hunt that much through my teens, but after the Army I bought a 45# bear Super Mag.
Fifteen years later I bought a custom 60# longbow and then a 60# AA Cheetah.  Most definitely overbowed with the long bow. Although I did learn to shoot the Cheetah fairly well.

Since then I have mostly stuck around the low fifties.
Except for this year, after strokes and a triple by-pass, I did months of rehab and when I got the ok from the Surgeon's office I started shooting my old 40# bow again.

Thing is, I don’t like shooting light bows that much.  So, with continuing to work out, I gradually got back to shooting a 49# longbow, and eventually a 54# recurve.

I don’t consider myself to be a really strong guy either. I am a very average 69 year old.  (Well ok, a little over-weight) But  I wanted to continue to shoot at least 50#, so I just worked at that and it became possible.  Maybe not for everyone but it worked for me. Physical therapy is a wonderful thing. I needed therapy on my shoulder and my right hand while doing cardiac rehab.  But it is possible to come back from injuries.
Best to you guys in the new year,
Gary

[beendare]

I really don’t have a problem with the Grip and Rip  shooting guys…. If they are having fun with it then great more power to them.

The problem I see is that when a guy has been very inconsistent accuracy wise for any length of time they lose the passion to shoot a stick bow. We all want to hit what we are aiming at right? Frustration sets in when you are missing animal, we just worm too hard for those shot opportunities.

 I know many trad shooters that got frustrated and went back to compounds due to the frustration of not being able to kill consistently and/or just plain inconsistent shooting.

IMO, you are over bowed if you can’t hold at FD and aim while executing a controlled shot sequence. Learning that has made all the difference for me. YMMV

.

[Wilderlife]

I just finished watching your video.  It held my interest from the start to the finish.  You have the communication skills and the archery skills you need to make more of these, if that's the direction you would like to head.

Thanks for the kind words and extra discussion via PM, bloke.

Great topic and video Dylan.  I'm sure you'll get some great responses from the Gang on an often asked question.  Personally, I'm looking for another Howard Hill bow in the mid 70's and that will be my limit.

Good Luck

Deno

Nothing like a heavy ASL and a heavy arrow to put a smile on the face!

I like the video, but I want to move the discussion to your question about being overbowed. Currently, I am. I recently had back surgery and was just released to shoot the bow a few weeks ago. My hunting weight is 53# at 28", but I only pull 25 " so I'm not actually shooting much poundage. Yet, my conditioning is not yet up to snuff, causing me to tire after 20-30 arrows. The thing that really made me realize I had a way to go is that I have been shooting a 40# bow, (again with consideration for my short draw). I can shoot this one much better, as well as longer, than my regular bow. This leads me to my 2022 archery resolution, which is to get back in better physical condition. Ordinarily I have no problem at all with my regular bow. Time to go to work, because I shoot 3D with that same bow. The big take away for me is how easy it is to get overbowed during a layoff. After all, if I don't do the work, I won't shoot as well as Bisch when I grow up.

I think you make a good point, mate. When shooting at your limit you can drift in and out of your bow being a bit too much I find. I haven't shot as much as I'd like over the last couple of weeks so I'm only good for a couple dozen shots out of the longbow in the video before I feel like putting it down, but I can till let rip confidently and enjoy those shots. I started competing in a few shoots down here so was using my 51# Widow a lot more and that's been a heck of a lot of fun. New longbow currently in the post will also be 51# so I'm looking forward to having an ASL I can shoot all day.

I think your point comes down to being self aware. Don't kid yourself. Be honest with where you're at and what you need to do and it's the best place to be.

You are a goofball Sam!!! 

Wilderlife, that was a very good video. I shoot a lot of competition and I work at a bowhunting ranch, and I see lots of guys that are obviously overbowed. I have never been able to handle anything even close to what would be considered heavy draw weight. I started out at 50# (I was overbowed myself then). I worked and worked until that 50# was not too much for me, and shot that same weight up till earlier this year. I had a neck injury about 5yrs ago and have never really been “right” since then. Earlier this year I also developed tendinitis in my bow arm. I had to go down in weight to get that under control. After that was fixed I went back up to 46# and was/am shooting much better than before, so that is where I am staying!

Bisch

Absolutely, mate. The bottom line is enjoyment, right? The heavy bow has nothing to do with ego for me and everything about enjoying shooting a variety of bows. More power is always (well, usually) better, providing you can shoot the thing OK, but if you can't, there isn't much point. And as much as I enjoy flinging arrows out of a heavy bow, once I get tired I pick up a lighter bow and have just as much fun afterwards.

A question I ask myself all the time.😂

Right after a big collapse and a low right miss, resulting in a lost arrow! 

Very well done on the video. And a good topic.   To me your question only has one answer: Am I in control of the bow? As in can I draw it back, hold it on target and release when I want to?  For me on a hunting bow that's about 55 pounds max. 48 or so on my target bow. I can still shoot my 67 pound widow, but I can't control it. So I don't.

Good words, mate. Control is everything.
I've had people tell me I'm not in control of the big bow because I'm not steady at full draw but then I watch them shoot and they release the second they come to anchor. I don't have a problem with people shooting the way they want to but holding an ASL steady at full draw isn't just about the draw weight as the bows themselves hardly weigh anything. My Widow I pull about 62# with is a very different story just because it's a much bigger bow.

Being overbowed is a big issue.For both begginers and experienced archers.

When learning to shoot you need to develop good form and good technique.Very hard to do if not impossible with too heavy a bow.Plus you need to practice alot and shoot alot of arrows with the right information and or coaching and put the puzzle together.Hard to do with too heavy a bow.So archers get off to a bad start and ingrain really bad habits that are hard to break and can also lead to target panic issues as well that are extemely aggravating.I would say its a cardinal sin to start of too heavy.

It can happen to experienced archers as well.Like when coming back from injuries,long layoffs or thier getting older etc. and thier shooting thier bows that are now too heavy.Bad habits happen.Short drawing,snap shooting,poor alignment,focus issues,no being able to get to full draw and more.Do that thousands of times and your in a big hole for sure thats hard to climb out of. Its very possible to not be overbowed have major problems from shooting bows for way to long that were too heavy and now even a lighter bow gives you fits that you know you can pull easily.Alot of it can be the bad habits that have been ingained and also psychological and or mental problems related to shooting the bow freely without hangups.

Bottom line you dont want to be overbowed.You want to be in complete control of the whole process from the start of the draw to the anchor and everything in between and finally the release.Being overbowed can screw the whole thing up whether your a begginer or a highly experienced shooter.If your not in complete control you are shooting too much poundage  IMO.That includes physical control and mental control.

Absolutely, mate. Something I didn't mention in the video is just that; it's impossible to learn good technique if you start heavy. In actual fact, the Widow that's 65# @ 28in was the first trad bow I ever owned. It was a gift. I thought it might be OK but after one pull I knew it was too much and went straight to sourcing some lighter limbs (the 54# @ 28in ones that I pull about 51# with). Even then, I sourced other light bows and shot them just as much as the lighter Widow limbs to ensure I was starting off correct, and I STILL briefly injured my shoulder after a few weeks. It's all good now, both in terms of recovery and understanding what I was doing wrong. It wasn't an issue with the weight at all; more an issue with my technique (obviously) but isolating that problem was easier with the lighter bows.

Nice video and great topic.
I started with a light fiberglass bow when I was about eight years old. On my thirteenth birthday, my parents gave me a 40#.
I didn’t hunt that much through my teens, but after the Army I bought a 45# bear Super Mag.
Fifteen years later I bought a custom 60# longbow and then a 60# AA Cheetah.  Most definitely overbowed with the long bow. Although I did learn to shoot the Cheetah fairly well.

Since then I have mostly stuck around the low fifties.
Except for this year, after strokes and a triple by-pass, I did months of rehab and when I got the ok from the Surgeon's office I started shooting my old 40# bow again.

Thing is, I don’t like shooting light bows that much.  So, with continuing to work out, I gradually got back to shooting a 49# longbow, and eventually a 54# recurve.

I don’t consider myself to be a really strong guy either. I am a very average 69 year old.  (Well ok, a little over-weight) But  I wanted to continue to shoot at least 50#, so I just worked at that and it became possible.  Maybe not for everyone but it worked for me. Physical therapy is a wonderful thing. I needed therapy on my shoulder and my right hand while doing cardiac rehab.  But it is possible to come back from injuries.
Best to you guys in the new year,
Gary

More power to you, mate! I find people seem to be scared of working out - whatever that looks like - when conversations are around archery specifically. Unless of course, it is rehab-style workouts to help with recovery from some sort of injury. I believe the more you can look after your muscles and joints, the longer you'll be able to enjoy shooting bows. I know that might sound ridiculous coming from a 33 year old but it is absolutely my intention to remain fit and active so I can enjoy living my life the way I do for as long as possible - archery and everything else included.

I really don’t have a problem with the Grip and Rip  shooting guys…. If they are having fun with it then great more power to them.

The problem I see is that when a guy has been very inconsistent accuracy wise for any length of time they lose the passion to shoot a stick bow. We all want to hit what we are aiming at right? Frustration sets in when you are missing animal, we just worm too hard for those shot opportunities.

 I know many trad shooters that got frustrated and went back to compounds due to the frustration of not being able to kill consistently and/or just plain inconsistent shooting.

IMO, you are over bowed if you can’t hold at FD and aim while executing a controlled shot sequence. Learning that has made all the difference for me. YMMV

.

Agreed.

If a bow is too much to handle from the start it'll only lead to the developing of terrible habits and it's a slippery road to go down and very difficult to climb back up.

[GCook]

I can shoot the weight I do accurately for a while but the number of repetitions I like to shot it does aggravate arthritis issues. 
Sometimes I think it would be worthwhile to have a second bow, say 10lbs lighter, to shoot 80 or 100 arrows in an afternoon with and just a couple of dozen with my hunting weight bows. 

[Wilderlife]

I can shoot the weight I do accurately for a while but the number of repetitions I like to shot it does aggravate arthritis issues. 
Sometimes I think it would be worthwhile to have a second bow, say 10lbs lighter, to shoot 80 or 100 arrows in an afternoon with and just a couple of dozen with my hunting weight bows.

There is something to be said for being able to let arrow after arrow fly as much as you want. The speed at which you shoot them can have a big impact on how tired you get as well, I find. I can walk around a field archery course and let an arrow go at 20 targets out of my heavier bows without much trouble but if I let a quiver go without a rest between arrows it can wear me out.

I showed the video to my husband. The first thing he said, "If you have more bows than you can shoot, you are over bowed." He shoots John Schulz tempo best, I shoot best if I have a slight deepening at at anchor. The term 'grip and rip it' is a reference to sloppy form, often has nothing to do with drawing bows that are too stiff.  Shooting without holding time, as we here are always reminded of, involves hours, days and months of practice and paying close attention to all of the particulars, just not stopping for very long or at all at full draw. It has pointed out that some people shake holding any weight bow, but not while they are actively drawing. Some people are simply not coordinated enough to be on target when full draw is reached, they should shoot a method that works for them. However, if you are coordinated enough to be on target when you reach full draw, how often, when hunting, does one need to hold and wait for the shot to be clear or to let down? When it is time to shoot it is time to shoot.

I agree with not needing to hold while hunting often, but it does happen. For me, I'm not at the point of feeling in control of my shot unless I hold and consciously start thinking about expansion. I'd like to get there one day but for now it's not in my wheelhouse. As a result, holding my heavier bows at full draw while I think about my aim and then transfer to expansion becomes tiresome, but the more I do it the stronger I become.

[A Lex]

Excellent video and a great topic Dylan.

As you know I shoot a heavy longbow. But, I cannot do that without using it very regularly. I shoot it almost daily, usually for a couple of hours, shooting 40-50 shots.

If I have a long break, like a week or more, my shooting shows it. I need to shoot the big bow regularly as I can gain stamina, I can maintain stamina, but I cannot store stamina.

I'll often finish off my session with a dozen or 20 odd shots with a lighter bow of 65 or 55lb to "warm down"

My thoughts on being overbowed pretty much mirror those already mentioned above, mainly being in control of the shot and having good consistant back tension.

My 75 is my main hunting bow, so I practice with it, a lot. Because of that constant practice, I can pretty constantly put in good kill zone shots at hunting type ranges, from most hunting positions, from "cold" ie no warm-up shots.

But......if I was going to a shoot where I was needed to shoot say 100 odd arrows for a 2 hour competition, I'd be overbowed with my 75, I'd simply run out of "stamina" with that bow. In that scenario I'd be taking my 55lb'er for sure.

Hope that makes sense.

Like I said, excellent video and great topic. So thank you, I'm really enjoying this thread.

Well done.

Best
Lex

[Wilderlife]

Cheers Lex.

I think I'm working towards a similar philosophy, which is why I am excited for my new longbow to get here. I aim to be able to shoot my 65# bow at a weekend ABA shoot at some point and feel strong and confident with every shot. I'm nowhere near that stage at the moment but it's a good goal to work towards. In the meantime, I will continue to enjoy shooting that bow within my means and then take my new longbow to shoots so I can enjoy everything that an ASL has to offer but not feel as though I have to fight with it towards the end of the shoot. Everything needs to be fun at the end of the day and shooting when I've run out of stamina (as you say) really isn't that much fun, mainly because that's when shots start going all over the place and I lose arrows!

[A Lex]

Oops, well maybe I spoke too soon, I think I might be a bit over-bowed with any/all of my bows today 

Took my Wife and kids Ten Pin Bowling this morning. Had a great time, until I somehow managed to tweak a muscle in my back.

Got home and it felt ok, so this afternoon I took my 75lb'er out for my regular session, but nope, it was not going to happen today. My back hurt just a bit too much with the 75 at full draw.

Tried the 55lb'er and it didn't hurt to draw at all, so I shot a dozen or so really good, fully controlled shots. My back wasn't giving me any pain, but I could definitely feel it wasn't quite right, so I decided to quit while I was ahead.

Going to be difficult, but I think I might actually give all the bows a rest for a few days, and give that tweaked muscle in my back a chance to come right. Might be a wise thing to do me thinks.

Hmmmm, contrary to popular belief, maybe I really am getting wiser as I get older........

Now that's scary.

Best
Lex

[Wilderlife]

It goes like that sometimes, mate!

Early last year when I was at one of the strongest points in my life I got an infection in my elbow and had to put the heavy bows down for a little bit. It took much longer to get back to where I was with my strength after that. Luckily I still had some other bows I could shoot.

[Bowwild]

I enjoyed the video. I think your form is quite solid, at least by my definition. Your tone is friendly and helpful. I would definitely view other videos you make.

I have never hunted with a recurve, since 1968 that had a draw weight, at my 26" draw, (I'm only 5'6") greater than 51 pounds.  Theses days I'm down to 44#s. 

To build up or keep in bow drawing shape I draw, anchor, and hold without an arrow (and without releasing of course) for increasing amount of times until I can hold the draw much longer than the 3-5 seconds I'll hold when actually shooting. This prevents me from shooting arrows beyond the point of form-destroying fatigue.  It also helps me focus on the process of shooting the bow (up to anchor/hold) without interference by results thinking.

BTW. Those bow cases that have curved ends are pretty cool!  I've never seen anything like em.

[Dave Lay]

I had watched your video in the past and agree totally with you, it takes work to maintain the ability to shoot heavier bows and we have to be honest with ourselves . Thanks for posting that here

[BAK]

Am I over-bowed, in a word no.  Guess I feel I'm smart enough to know if it hurts, don't do it.  I shot a 65 pound bow for awhile back in  my younger days, My shoulder started to get sore so I asked myself why, I only hunted deer, antelope, and black bear, none of which required a heavy bow.  I sold them and dropped down to the 45 to 50 pound range.  Even less if I'm just shooting 3d.