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Author Topic: Being overbowed - are you overbowed?  (Read 7923 times)

Offline Wilderlife

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Re: Being overbowed - are you overbowed?
« Reply #40 on: January 20, 2022, 07:50:46 PM »
I think the more information there is out there about finding good back tension and maintaining it, the fewer little problems and niggles people would experience.

It's almost like considering your entire back as a trigger mechanism or something. When you get into it properly and you let an arrow go there is a very big light bulb moment; at least there was for me.

Offline Arlo

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Re: Being overbowed - are you overbowed?
« Reply #41 on: January 21, 2022, 12:33:54 AM »
The one thing I haven’t seen mentioned here is the vast difference there is getting a clean release consistently with heavier draw weight bows.

 I started out pretty heavy and really had some bad habits to break after I started seriously getting into proper form. At that point I went way down in draw weight and started really concentrating on back tension , alignment, and follow through.

 My draw length went from 28” to 30” by the time I got it down. Of course then I had my 60# bows jump up to 66-67# at 30” and I could not shoot them very much at all and keep my form. It took a lot of work and a lot of practice holding and expanding my shot with the heavier draw weight…… but the one thing I figured out, was shooting light weight target bows require serious attention to your release. It was a lot tougher getting off the string clean consistently with a 40# target bow than a 55-60# bow….. I just flat out shoot better with a bit more draw weight….. going to a tab helped my consistency issue with lighter weight target bows, but my target bow weight is 49#, not 40#, and there is a difference to me. I settled into about 57# at age 60 for hunting, and do not shoot as much as I used to. So I start out in spring with my lighter weight bow and get some exercise in before shooting my hunting rig much. By July , I rarely touch the target bow, and shoot 3D , and just practice with my hunting rig.

During hunting season I practice with 2 well placed arrows a day…. One at sunrise…. One at sunset…. Religiously…….Slow smooth draw, and it’s in the 10 ring. ….. it’s that fist arrow that counts while hunting, and that method has worked well for me.     

Offline Part Time Archer

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Re: Being overbowed - are you overbowed?
« Reply #42 on: January 21, 2022, 11:49:50 AM »
First thing I always ask , is there a profit to be had ,in higher weight bows,yes there is judging from used bow sales. Higher weight bows are harder to sale and 40 pounders are a rare find. Arrows from higher weight bows are easier broken and lost which require replacement. How many us have heavy bows we seldom shoot and reach for the lower weight. The last bow I would sale is a lower weight. As I age I know it will always be there to use and easier for children,grand children, and friends to use . Surgeons love money from rotator cuff thinning and injury. But I do admire the rare genetic beast that can shoot heavy bows undamaged after 4 decades of millions of shots, seriously.Weight has always been a can of worms. :archer2:
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Offline pdk25

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Re: Being overbowed - are you overbowed?
« Reply #43 on: January 21, 2022, 12:29:28 PM »
LOL.  More injuries to rotator cuff from repetetive stress injury than shooting heavy bows.  I am curious why someone would think that arrows are necessarily broken more with a heavier bow.  If built correctly, they are also correspondingly stronger.  Any real evidence to these claims, or just more justifying people shooting what they choose too?

Offline Wilderlife

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Re: Being overbowed - are you overbowed?
« Reply #44 on: January 21, 2022, 02:53:09 PM »
The last three responses have been great; thanks!

They are starting to go into different territory that the video intended. Remember, I made the video about being overbowed, mainly to explore ideas of what that actually means, and to maybe get people to think more about what that means. As I state, some people have told me that if I can't shoot a bow all day at a tournament I'm overbowed and I think that's wrong. If I can pick a bow up and shoot it confidently a couple dozen times and set it down when I am getting tired (and know it!) that's plenty for hunting situations, provided I'm accurate enough and can handle full draw OK.

The discussion looks to now be moving towards "why you SHOULD want to shoot a heavy bow", or "why shooting a heavy bow can be good", and I'm perfectly happy to go down that rabbit hole and potentially even make a follow up video going in that direction, but I need to get a few more animals under my belt first in order to take myself seriously.

The clean release thing - absolutely! I've had bows I pull around 32# with and the release has been much more critical, in a bad way. Still, those bows were very useful for working on other aspects of my form.

Regarding hunting, it's very difficult to say more is not better (most of the time) as long as we are considering everything else - can you shoot the bow OK, are your arrows tuned, are your broadheads sharp, etc. I think it's very difficult to claim that more poundage ISN'T better when every thing else is considered equal, including the ability of the archer.

We do a lot of culling with rifles down this way and people like to say something to the effect of "you can't get more dead than dead". There are trends that move towards using lighter rifles for a lot of culling, and when shooting from a vehicle under the spotlight it's very easy to place bullets in the head of animals so there isn't much need for a rifle bigger than a .223. Having said that, for a lot of culling/hunting where someone is on their feet, the biggest rifle you can shoot comfortably is more desirable as it obviously leaves much less room for error, BUT, when shooting like this down here we aren't using anywhere near as much of the meat as you'd imagine. My reason for bringing this up is that you can have a similar idea with archery but there are still some differences.

I shoot a .300WM in many hunting situations and if I'm after a really big trophy I often take that rifle as I know it has more than enough power. If I'm after meat, I usually take something smaller because a smaller rifle will usually damage far less meat (as long as comparisons between shot placement are realistic). With a heavy bow though, unless we're talking about busting bones, the wound and wound channel are going to be much more similar to that of a lighter bow. We could also argue that the chance of a pass through with a higher bow is great. That doesn't mean that you can't get pass throughs with a lighter bow obviously, but it's a reasonable assumption to make.

Anyway, I apologise for banging on about rifles on the forum but I'm always fascinated by this type of discussion because there is the crowd who love to use lighter gear and still get it done, and then there is the crowd who go as big as they can because it leaves more room for error. If we have a talk about advantages of heavier bows or I make a video about the same topic, that's the sort of approach I may take.

Cheers.

Offline Lori

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Re: Being overbowed - are you overbowed?
« Reply #45 on: January 21, 2022, 06:44:07 PM »
I can comment on bow power concerning deer ribs. My husband shot a buck a few years back with a 50 at his 26+ draw. The very worn Hill with his serrations at 40 or more yards cut flat and center through a rib without breaking the rib and 3/4 of a rib on the exit, without breaking the rib. The arrow shattered glancing off of a small tree, the buck ran less than 60 yards and went down. The blood trail was extreme. He used to hunt with nothing less than 64 pounds and often much more, but eventually he was paying a physical price for shooting the heavy bows as much as he likes to shoot. He always claimed if you can control a 100 pound bow you should hunt with a 70. He could pull two 70 pounds bows back to full draw as often as he wanted, kind of hurt the bow hand with two longbows in one hand. He now does two 55 pound bows at the same time. I can shoot a 38 pound bow for hours, but i cannot shoot a 42 pound bow more than 4 shots and get to anchor. Deer are not that tough and I do not want to hit them in the shoulder bones, so I stick with what I am most accurate with..

Offline pdk25

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Re: Being overbowed - are you overbowed?
« Reply #46 on: January 21, 2022, 10:31:33 PM »
Pretty sure he told me his fingers couldn’t hold up to the heavy weights, but his shoulders were fine.  At least that is how I remember it.

Offline Blacktail42

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Re: Being overbowed - are you overbowed?
« Reply #47 on: January 29, 2022, 05:17:48 PM »
This is very subjective because it's not impossible for someone to train and get stronger to be able to handle a higher weight. Of course, this becomes harder as years progress but not impossible. I train and run endurace races and I apply the same training for my archery practice and so far I am able to shoot bows in higher weight, but I also control my archery practice. In other words, I am not going to overshoot a heavy bow because of my ego.
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Offline Skipmaster1

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Re: Being overbowed - are you overbowed?
« Reply #48 on: January 29, 2022, 09:22:45 PM »
I can pretty easily shoot much heavier than I do, but I like being able to absolutely dominate the bow I’m shooting. I can shoot it more accurately and hold at full draw longer if needed. This season I had to hold at full draw for 17 seconds to kill my buck. At my max weight, I wouldn’t have been able to do that.

Offline charles m

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Re: Being overbowed - are you overbowed?
« Reply #49 on: January 31, 2022, 01:30:31 PM »
Yeah, I'm over bowed at 75#s, so that's why I shoot 65 to 70#s.  Nice post Wilder.

Offline charles m

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Re: Being overbowed - are you overbowed?
« Reply #50 on: January 31, 2022, 01:34:27 PM »
LOL.  More injuries to rotator cuff from repetetive stress injury than shooting heavy bows.  I am curious why someone would think that arrows are necessarily broken more with a heavier bow.  If built correctly, they are also correspondingly stronger.  Any real evidence to these claims, or just more justifying people shooting what they choose too?

Nice post also, they won't answer because they have no evidence.  As you said, they just justify. Most injuries claimed to be from shooting a bow are bogus, they are derived from other issues or injuries from earlier in life, and/or they have no clue on how to draw a bow correctly.  If they did, their would be no shoulder injuries as the shoulder is NOT involved! Many people tell on themselves when they make that claim. 

Offline Wilderlife

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Re: Being overbowed - are you overbowed?
« Reply #51 on: January 31, 2022, 02:17:04 PM »
Yes, I see that a little bit in my circles.

One bloke at my local club is in his mid 70's and he's fairly busted up. A beautiful person and a great hunter. I think between him and his wife they've killed over 1400 foxes with bows and arrows here, which is a monumental achievement.

He tells me things, more out of concern for me than wanting to lecture me, about how "walking around with a heavy backpack ruined my hips" and "trying to shoot heavy bows ruined my shoulders".

I have enormous respect for him so I just listen to him and enjoy the interaction, but I haven't the heart to say "a modern back with an internal frame and belt/harness distributes the weight very differently to your old bags with no belt", or "well every time i watch you draw your bow your back doesn't move and your elbow is way outside the string".

Point being, if you use your back rather than your shoulder to draw your bow, regardless of the weight, it's very hard to injure your shoulders!

Offline jhg

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Re: Being overbowed - are you overbowed?
« Reply #52 on: January 31, 2022, 03:02:42 PM »
Full anchor, any position, no change in hold duration, clean release (more or less). Thats how I determine if my bow is too heavy. I like to hold my draw, wait wait wait, release. I can tell right away if I cannot settle into anchor from a heavier bow. Does not "feel" right.
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Offline Larry Dean

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Re: Being overbowed - are you overbowed?
« Reply #53 on: January 31, 2022, 04:34:13 PM »
Years ago Hill Archery had an ad showing Hill, I believe it was Dick Garver and Ted Ekin on each side, drawing bows. A chiropractor discussed Hill's form being more ergonomic, since he had shot many more arrows from much heavier bows without injury, while the other two in the photo had chronic injuries. Jamming and torquing joints can cause injury no matter what the weight of the bow. Other than straining a draw finger while doing a long hold with a 96 pound bow, I have never had an archery injury. Wrestling with with my motorcycle that got tangled up with a falling bicycle in my garage, that cannot be done bone on bone or with proper Hill form. Yep, I got hurt, but I did not drop the BMW.

Offline Larry Dean

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Re: Being overbowed - are you overbowed?
« Reply #54 on: January 31, 2022, 04:36:00 PM »

Offline Terry Green

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Re: Being overbowed - are you overbowed?
« Reply #55 on: January 31, 2022, 05:41:56 PM »
Check the form clock thread on the shooters forum... Hill's form mimics the form clock... shown in the video.
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Offline Larry Dean

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Re: Being overbowed - are you overbowed?
« Reply #56 on: January 31, 2022, 06:29:35 PM »
I agree, the only real difference is the wrist and bow arm from a pistol grip, which is the natural thing to do with a straight grip bow. Some longbow shooters get into an over leaning over slumping posture,  and end up looking like they are about ready to jump into a gopher hole. Hill had a more erect spine than what some interpret, but he did not lock his neck back or allow his shoulders to ramp up into the neck, (which was me with my first target shooting form) and also allowed a natural cant of the bow that put his eye more over the arrow without strain.  A smart way to get stronger and to preserve the joints, some will get it others will deny it.
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« Last Edit: January 31, 2022, 06:35:22 PM by Larry Dean »

Offline Jim Jackson

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Re: Being overbowed - are you overbowed?
« Reply #57 on: January 31, 2022, 07:21:41 PM »
Blaze out your own trail.

Offline GCook

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Re: Being overbowed - are you overbowed?
« Reply #58 on: February 01, 2022, 09:06:48 PM »
Those who claim the shoulder isn't involved in the draw are incorrect.  Maybe you aren't using the whole shoulder muscular set to do the heavy part of the drawing but in the beginning of the draw you are putting a substantial load on the shoulder and engaging the ball into the socket, wear from the rotation with weight on it etc.  My orthopedic surgeon is a specialist in shoulders, reworked both of mine and being an archer himself made sure I had a therapist who understood the needs of my shoulders for archery. 
He did note though that a proper draw sequence saves the wear and tear.
Right now he is wanting to grind out a bone spur that pinches my AC joint every time l draw or reach across my body to pull cable, piping etc. 
Personally both of my shoulders were injured at work/play and not archery however once any part of of you is injured, repaired or not, it will never be 100% and the chances of you developing arthritis or degenerative issues increase exponentially.
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Offline Wilderlife

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Re: Being overbowed - are you overbowed?
« Reply #59 on: February 01, 2022, 09:36:03 PM »
Of course the shoulder is involved mate. Certainly at the start, but beyond that the shoulder is relied upon more for your mobility and rotation. You still need to look after your shoulders when we are talking about archery and this is more to do with being able to remain mobile with them. As you said, an injured shoulder through something unrelated to archery is still going to give you problems when drawing a bow, but if you rely on your shoulders to pull your bow back - of pretty well any draw weight - it'll lead to problems.

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