ASLs and hand shock;

[UncasUK]

About forty years ago I hade a HH 68'' longbow 61lb at 28'' that realy kicked.
I know things progress and change so what make of similar bow would be smooth to draw
and shoot without hand shock, or very little at least.
Can you recommend any particular bowyer and his models, unfortunately there are none to try over here.
So you would have to know which one to choose first time when you order.
any advice please.

[MnFn]

I agree with the above.  My first custom was a 60# 66”  beauty, but it had a lot of hand shock. I bought it in the mid 1990s, I think.  I will say the way I gripped it made a difference. But I moved on from that one after a few years.

I had a Northern Mist Shelton that was 55# , 66” and that had no shock, but a friend wanted it so I sold it to him. I bought a Northern Mist Ramer (50#@ 28”, 66”) and that is very nice to shoot. Both are string follow.

I also have a JD Berry Morning Star that is 66” and 52# at my draw. It is a very nice shooter as well. This one has 1” of backset, but no noticeable handshock.  But generally I like string follow as was mentioned above.

[hardbern]

There are at least 2 bowyers in the UK making Hill-style bows:
- Rex Oakes still makes his "Sagittarius";
- Rod Harris learnt from Rex & makes his own version.
- I believe Lee Ankers @ Heritage Longbows now makes his own version.

If you want something with UK roots, there is Jack Belcher's son Jim, in the US
making his version.

I have few Hill & Hill-style bows myself,
the worst if not only one with handshock being a HH Big Five
(backset, made by Lee Kramer in the '70s).

I have a HH Sirocco 45# - very smooth
& a Wesley Special - not so smooth, but at 65# not an easy draw anymore.
Both made by Craig.

I also have older UK made ('70s):
- a very smooth Rex Oakes Sagittarius, 51# all yew
- smooth Jack Belcher 50#
- another Jack Belcher 58# "American Longbow".

[Kirkll]

The hand shock issue in HH style ASL bows has to do with the string tension at brace not being able to stop the forward motion of the limbs. The Straight unstrung profile, or string follow style typically has way more hand shock just for this reason.... Especially the lower draw weight bows. The higher the draw weight, the less kick it will typically  have because the string tension is higher at brace.

With less preload on the limbs, they are silky smooth at the first few inches of the draw cycle which some guys really like. But you pay the price with less efficiency and more hand shock.

Quite a few modern bowyers have tamed these ASL designs down a lot by altering taper rates and pushing the working portion of the limb out further. They have also built in a higher preload to increase the tension at brace.

I have a design that i came up with years ago that looks identical to a HH ASL when strung.... with no hand shock, and much higher performance than the typical ASL that i called "The Boot Hill Express"....

I took them to a lot of 3D shoots where there were quite a few HH fans shooting, and got a strange response...I was told that "it wasn't a HH bow if it didn't have the thump", "It shot an arrow too fast", and "It was too hard to pull the first few inches."..(more preload)... When i took the string off, everyone walked away because it had too much reflex in the limbs unstrung....

I was shocked...  I couldn't give these things away, much less take any orders to build more...... It was sad, because these were very good shooting long bows.  I haven't built a single  one in about 10 years now....

Kirk

[Larry Dean]

My first longbows were both made by John Schulz, if they had much hand shock, I did not notice.  The first ASL I shot was a Pearson, that one kicked pretty hard. Then the Howatt Martin longbows showed up at a shoot. M10 or something like that, a mule with a string on it. 
I must disagree with Kirk a bit on what has more hand shock and less speed to a degree, I have a string follow that is not slow nor does it have hand shock with a B50 string on it. Some bows have a lot of limb mass and energy that does not get into the arrow at the end of the cast.  I rebuilt a walking stick that started life as a Howard Hill Mountain Man model. Before reworking it from tip to tip, I shot it, gravel gouges in the string grooves be damned. I shot it with a straight arm and as long a draw as I could muster. Holy crap, my ears flapped on the side of my head and just for second there I went blind. It turned out to be a very pretty and nice shooter and 5 pounds lighter when I was done, with a padded BCY string on it.  Those Jerry Hill bows with action wood lams and about of 2" of back set had a hardy kick as well. Once I shot a heavy one and opened my hand while taking a long hold at a PAA target, I always shot with an open hand with target bows, plus wrist sling, that bow tried to beat the arrow to the target.  With a normal longbow draw and grip, sure it had some thump, but it was pretty quick and accurate. I think we make too much about hand shock and it seems that those that make the most out of it are shooting with stiff arm form that does not work well with ASLs and straight grips, they would be better off shooting recurves that matched their form and shooting style.

[limbshaker]

There's a lot of "mystique and romance" that surround the Hill style bows. And with that comes a lot of "bull" that I've had to learn for myself over the years. Here's a little of what I have learned personally....

Stringfollow designs don't "assure" no hand shock. In fact, lots are worse than other profiles because the limb is under less tension and "dead weight" just like Kirk mentioned above. I've found all of that to be true, and have all sorts here right now including shocky stringfollow bows.

And all backset bows aren't inherently shocky either. Done right, the limb is lighter and has less mass moving around and less thump. A lot just aren't built with this in mind.

Perfect example:

I have a Dave Miller Old Tom and a Northern Mist American here right now. Unstrung, the profile is basically identical and so is the draw weight and length. With the same arrow, the Miller will knock your elbow out of socket. The NM is very calm, and faster and the limbs are much thinner. That tells my little lizard brain that it's a more efficient design and it shoots better for it.

A bow that's excessively long for your draw length will also add to the thump, because the longer limb has to have more material to draw the same weight as a shorter limb. Again, more mass under less tension.

A lot of people that tout the Hill style bow will simply say:
"You just don't know how to shoot it" if you mention a bow has excess shock or doesn't shoot well for any reason. In my experience that's a load of crap for the most part. I have certainly had some that are terrible and done everything but stand on my head to get them to shoot well, and I've had or shot about all of them at this point. You do need to get your hand heeled down and pressure in the center of the grip, but honestly that's about it. A decently heavy arrow is also very favorable.

40 years ago you were probably shooting a cedar arrow that weighed about 450gr out of a 61# bow. Any Hill style bow I've had will be thumpy with a combo like that.

Get you a bow in a reasonable profile (not extreme stringfollow or backset), from a well respected maker (besides David Miller), in a draw weight you can handle and in a length that the bowyer recommends for your draw length. Shoot at least 10 grains of arrow weight per pound for your draw weight and do NOT put a Dacron/B50/B55 string on it. And spend some time shooting it to give it a solid evaluation.

Do all of that and you will be on the right track to a good shooting bow in my experience. These bows aren't for everyone, and they don't have that "magic forgiveness" that some people seem to preach. But they are great bows and fun to shoot and make an excellent hunting tool.

 

[katman]

Nice to see you back Kirk.
I have  several of Kirk's bows and his stealth model is extremely nice.

[Kirkll]

Great post limb shaker... You nailed 

        Kirk

[Larry Dean]

I have had longbows that were no more for giving than a common cheap recurve, I also have longbows that forgive, to a point, draw length and release energy variations better than most.  I know we are all a bunch of flesh and blood Hooter Shooters, except Howard Hill and Byron Ferguson, if you look close, did have some draw length variations, I know I do. Sometime when I shoot a deer I did not feel the broad head touch my index finger. Even though the arrow still went where intended, i still wonder just how short that draw was. My wife has a bow that has a very short sweet spot, in that sweet spot it is an amazing bow, long of that sweet spot it get much faster and short of that sweet spot the speed falls off very rapidly. Longbows can have those same differences to a degree, but probably not as much as a bow that is completely designed around speed.

[Orion]

Limb length, taper and weight, brace height as well as string material and arrow weight can all be tweaked to reduce hand shock on an ASL, but the design is inherently shocky.  The riser is just very small (i.e., not much mass) so there is little to absorb the excess energy in the limbs when they come to the end of the shot.  Not much can be done about that. Sure the riser can be made with heavyier material, but it's still quite small and thus won't have the mass of a recurve or even a hybrid. Less ALS physical mass is a substantial contributor to hand shock compared to a recurve or hybrid. 

Long story short, until a bow is designed with 100% efficiency, i.e., all of the limb energy istransferred to the arrow, all bows will have some hand shock and ASLs will likely have a bit more than recurves and hybrids.  Some ASLs will have more than others, and some shooters are more sensitive to it than others.

Regardless, I've found very few ASLs that were truly uncomfortable to shoot, and I like shooting them.  It seems I get a better sight picture than any other trad bow design.  I'm probably not quite as accurate with an ASL as i am with a recurve, primarily because the bow is physically lighter and a tad more difficult to keep on target. 

[mark_m]

You cannot go wrong with calling or emailing Craig at HHA. He will answer any questions you have and his depth of knowledge to help you choose the best bow for you, comes from a lifetime of building bows. I have shot ASL's for many years, and if you are willing to put in the time to learn how to shoot with this style of bow, you will never look back.

Currently shooting an HHA Wesley special. No hand shock....ever.

[M60gunner]

I liked the ASL appeal, LB, backquiver with own made arrows. No fancy stuff, just bow and arrows and for some years I didn’t pay attention to the hand shock or thump. Then old age and arthritis came to make my life miserable. Some of that settled into my hands. In my situation it magnified that thump to a point were my bow hand hurt for almost a day. I learned it isn’t always the bow, light arrows, or bad form that can make shooting an ASL miserable. Yes, I tried everything already mentioned here plus a couple of those cream rubs on my hands. I sold that bow but I still have a place in my heart for that style of bow.

[Gordon Jabben]

I'm no help UncasUK.  The ASL that I shoot the most, kicks pretty hard and is the slowest bow I have but it is the most accurate for me of the many I have owned.  I think the Northern Mist bows I have owned, have been the most pleasant to shoot.
   

[Sam McMichael]

I've been shooting ASL bows since 2003. 5 HHA bows and 2 NM bows. Early on, hand shock ceased to be an issue when I learned to use a firm, low wrist grip and a slightly flexed bow arm. I don't know squat about bow design, but I notice all my bows have long, slender limbs. Is that likely to be a reason they don't have hand shock? This thread really fascinates me, because this issue doesn't come into play in my shooting. At first, I thought so many of those other guys were just wimps, but there are far too many having this problem for it not to be real. I guess I am just lucky, because I don't care to shoot any other style bow.

[Rob DiStefano]

My take on the "ASL" is that the American Flat Longbow (AFL) grew out of the English Longbow (ELB) and it was Hill that most prominently made excellent bows in his transition from "D" ELB shape to flat AFL for both back and belly of the limbs. 

Design criteria is critical, as are materials.  Tempered bamboo limb cores were the standard for Hill, and for good reasons, notably for me is smoothness to draw length.  I like a thicker limb cross section that yields narrower limbs. 

The Hill "wedge" handle makes no sense for me and is hard on the hand.  A smaller, narrower grip with a very slight "locater" can help with both torque and release.  How the bow is gripped is another major factor.  Lotta guys buy into the full hand grip and for me that's a huge no-no.  I slightly angle the bow hand (which eliminates the need for an arm guard) and use the lower base of the thumb for the single pressure point. 

I prefer some amount of string follow, never straight or back set (reflexed) and Dacron spun strings only, generally with 1 or 2 added strands beyond what the holding weight calls for.  At least 11gpp arrow weight, more is better. 

In the long run, all bows and arrows are personal, though it may be a quest of sorts to figure out what works "best" for each of us.  Enjoy yer personal AFL.                

[Flem]

If you are getting "hand shock" from shooting an ASl, you most likely have a limb timing issue, which can cause vibration after release. Or perhaps you are not draining enough energy into the arrow. Everybody wants a fast bow and will continuously lighten arrows to achieve that goal. Shoot a heavy wood arrow and a lot of vibration will disappear. So what if the bow shoots slow, would you rather get smacked with a baseball going 100mph or a bowling ball going 50mph?

[Wilderlife]

Wow. The post by 'limbshaker' nails it!

I'm new to ASL's so take this with a grain of salt. I currently own two - a Chieftain made here in Australia by Nick Lintern of Norseman, and a Pacific Styk made in the USA by Eric Hoff of St Patrick Lake Longbows. Both are 66 inches long.

The Chieftain is 65# @ 26.5in and the Pacific Styk is 51# @ 26.5in. The Chieftain is straight laid and the Pacific Styk has a slight amount of back set. Chieftain has a locator grip and Pacific Styk has a dish grip. Besides that, the main difference between the two is that the riser is about one inch lower on the Pacific Styk than the Chieftain.

I use a D97 string on both of the bows and I don't find there to be any hand shock at all, however, I always make sure to shoot reasonably heavy arrows. Even with my Chieftain, right now the arrow tune I have is about 600 grains, which isn't as heavy as I'd like them but it still behaves fairly well.

Heel the bow, keep a slight bend in your elbow, have a fairly heavy arrow, and it's a beautiful shooting experience. I'm lucky that I haven't had an ASL that feels like it has a lot of shock in it, but I will say that I've shot one of my bows with a B55 string on it before and that was nowhere near as niec as the D97 strings.

[UncasUK]

Read all posts, absolutely wonderful explanations by all.
Thank you very much.

[Kirkll]

Edit

[Wilderlife]

I should point out though that if I grip the bow wrong or I have my arm too straight, it does boot me a little bit.  Which is of course part of what a lot of people point out. If you're like me and you shot recurves a little bit and then you picked up an ASL and shot it the same way, there will be a bit of an adjustment period.