ASLs and hand shock;

[Rob DiStefano]

The more bow hand that touches the grip, the more release shock will be felt, and the more torque will be applied to the bow, and the more need for an armguard.

[Flem]

Kirk, that was only one possibility that was mentioned, not a "theory" to be applied across the board.

I make all my bows string follow, like a low brace height and lite weight bows, mostly without tropical hardwood handles. They shoot smooth........ if handled correctly

[Wilderlife]

The more bow hand that touches the grip, the more release shock will be felt, and the more torque will be applied to the bow, and the more need for an armguard.

My experience has been the opposite.

I would normally shoot a recurve with a very high wrist grip, and have the bow just resting on the webbing of my hand down the centre. These bows seem to be more 'dead in the hand' and behave well when shot in this manner. I usually have a bow quiver on as well so that just adds further to the mass, and as a result, I find this a very forgiving bow and style to shoot in. The bow is less sensitive to small variations in my form.

With my ASL's, shooting with a high wrist grip didn't work for me. I needed much more contact with the grip/riser. The less contact I had, the more the bow jumped around and I would hit my wrist all the time. I experimented with everything from very light grip to strangling the heck out of it and the strangle worked better, but somewhere in the middle is where the sweet spot is.

It's very hard (for me) to heel the grip/riser properly while having only minimal contact with my hand. At the same time, if the bow isn't heeled properly the tiller is thrown way off and I'll get a very big thump.

There is a great video on YouTube with Cody Greenwood and Eric Hoff where Eric goes into detail about the design of his ASL and where the pressur needs to be on the riser to have a good shooting experience.

This has just been my experience of course and what has worked the best for me, so far. I'm still learning a lot.

[Tradcat]

This question is for Flem. Just curious why you don’t use tropical hardwoods? Is there an advantage to not using them? Also curious why Howard Hill, John Schulz, David Miller and others seem to prefer Myrtle as a riser material? Thanks in advance for any and all input.  Tradcat

[Flem]

Tradcat, my reasons are both, ethical and practical. I won't go into the ethics. My first preference is to collect or harvest my raw materials locally and regionally. I like the challenge of the search and its definitely a challenge when you take money out of the equation! I do buy American hardwoods from some local suppliers and I will use exotic/non native hardwoods harvested from urban forests. We have at our disposal a huge selection of excellent hardwoods, grown here in the USA. I like that.

Perhaps we should be defining "handshock" and the actual physical effect before we settle on a cause.

[Tradcat]

Any thoughts on the preferences for myrtle as the choice for risers ?

[hardbern]

As you're UK based thought you might interested in some more local perspective,
esp. 1 model I didn't mention previously.

Back in '81, Border Archery (Robin Robeson) introduced it's "Falcon", which was a Hill-style bow,
with proper stacked limbs, albeit typically with a locator grip.
This stayed on the market until the co. changed hands in '97.
I have 4 of these (see pic 3), only shot 2, as 2 are beyond me - one of them I believe is Sid's old bow from back then.
The ones I've shot are smooth as the proverbial ....

~'99 Border Archery (Sid Ball) introduced the "Falcon 2"
(see pic 2, the bows just labelled "Falcon" I believe though),
which was a "modern" deflex-reflex longbow (or flatbow as we called them),
with flat, non-stacked limbs.
Funnily enough the early "Falcon" was one of Sid's go-to bows back in the day.

Pic 3 is 4 of the early "Falcon" - if you can find one of these 2nd hand, they don't crop up for sale
often, but you never know ;-)

[Flem]

At one time, prior to WW2, Oregon was one of the top world sources for certain raw materials and they typically grew in relatively close proximity. That includes, Yew, Port Orford Cedar and Myrtle, or Bay laurel. Myrtle is a dense, fine grained, not oily wood, perfect for handles and its found on the way to your secret bow wood stash. Might as well grab some.

[hybridbow hunter]

Great to see you here again Kirk 

[TSP]

I think many of the problems people perceive about ASLs is due to trying to shoot them as if they are light target-weight bows...i.e. with exacting applications with regard to stance, target acquisition, how to draw, how to point (or aim...or not), where and how to anchor, how long to hold when at anchor, etc. etc.  These things tend to lend themselves more to uncomfortable shooting when the bow's design is really intended to be shot differently than say a target recurve for getting best results.  Like anything, your results may differ depending on your approach.

[Kirkll]

Great to see you here again Kirk 

Thanks Laurent. Good to be back.

This ASL topic is a sensitive one. There are just a lot HH fans out there that appreciate the nostalgic features of this design, and want these bows straight or even with string follow unstrung.

Personally i do not see what advantage there is to a straight unstrung bow profile when there is so much more to gain with some reflex built into the limbs.

But.... To each his own.... You guys have fun with your ASL bows. I mean that sincerely.    Kirk

[Flem]

Kirk, you are absolutely correct! It's nostalgic, obsessive, illogical, etc.
Why do so many like these inefficient bows? Why do people like classic cars?
Has to be visceral. Something ingrained in our DNA maybe. I don't know for sure, but when I pick up a Hill style to go shoot, it always makes me smile.

[Tradcat]

Well said Flem!

[Gordon Jabben]

Yep.  I'll be shooting my ASL and then go get one of my r/d longbows.  Wow, it is so nice to shoot, no hand shock, fast, very accurate.  Then I put it up, go back to my ASL with a smile.  I can't explain why. 

[Tradcat]

Same here Gordon! I guess we like the same flavor at Baskin Robbins!

[Overspined]

There's a lot of "mystique and romance" that surround the Hill style bows. And with that comes a lot of "bull" that I've had to learn for myself over the years. Here's a little of what I have learned personally....

Stringfollow designs don't "assure" no hand shock. In fact, lots are worse than other profiles because the limb is under less tension and "dead weight" just like Kirk mentioned above. I've found all of that to be true, and have all sorts here right now including shocky stringfollow bows.

And all backset bows aren't inherently shocky either. Done right, the limb is lighter and has less mass moving around and less thump. A lot just aren't built with this in mind.

Perfect example:

I have a Dave Miller Old Tom and a Northern Mist American here right now. Unstrung, the profile is basically identical and so is the draw weight and length. With the same arrow, the Miller will knock your elbow out of socket. The NM is very calm, and faster and the limbs are much thinner. That tells my little lizard brain that it's a more efficient design and it shoots better for it.

A bow that's excessively long for your draw length will also add to the thump, because the longer limb has to have more material to draw the same weight as a shorter limb. Again, more mass under less tension.

A lot of people that tout the Hill style bow will simply say:
"You just don't know how to shoot it" if you mention a bow has excess shock or doesn't shoot well for any reason. In my experience that's a load of crap for the most part. I have certainly had some that are terrible and done everything but stand on my head to get them to shoot well, and I've had or shot about all of them at this point. You do need to get your hand heeled down and pressure in the center of the grip, but honestly that's about it. A decently heavy arrow is also very favorable.

40 years ago you were probably shooting a cedar arrow that weighed about 450gr out of a 61# bow. Any Hill style bow I've had will be thumpy with a combo like that.

Get you a bow in a reasonable profile (not extreme stringfollow or backset), from a well respected maker (besides David Miller), in a draw weight you can handle and in a length that the bowyer recommends for your draw length. Shoot at least 10 grains of arrow weight per pound for your draw weight and do NOT put a Dacron/B50/B55 string on it. And spend some time shooting it to give it a solid evaluation.

Do all of that and you will be on the right track to a good shooting bow in my experience. These bows aren't for everyone, and they don't have that "magic forgiveness" that some people seem to preach. But they are great bows and fun to shoot and make an excellent hunting tool.

Love it. Shoot ‘em side by side before you buy anything! The difference is literally staggering. I could name high kick ASL’s by many bowyers. I made a bunch of ASL bows to different specs and tapers. I found my sweet spot.  I love the ASL style bow, and the mystique too. Lol. However the R/D bows are generally smoother, quicker, and shorter, and a whole lot easier to make and not mess up.

Not to mention, there are many bows by popular bowyers that you can see the build flaws as they just slap you in the face.  Non-builders generally probably won’t even notice. Messed up tillers, mal-alignment of the limbs when strung or unstrung, uneven tips, etc etc. it’s surprising the reputation can withstand it.

It kinda proves the arrow is what really matters. It should be the most important part of the equation. A propeller twisted longbow will still propel an arrow, I have a bow from a bowyer people love to prove it…you just tune the arrows to the bow and all is good.

[Mike Mecredy]

I've shot some of the old school ASL bows and have noticed the hand shock as it's so called.  One improvement that has been made over the years was to use tapered laminations in the limbs, making the tips have lower mass and reducing the hand shock.  Additionally the more modern string materials, are lower in weight, and require fewer strands, and vibrate less, that takes away more hand shock. By design, how those thick limbs emerge off of that riser with the flat back, it's going to have more hand shock than a D/R bow or a recurve.  There's not much to eliminated it all and make them shoot as comfortable as other bow designs, but there are things that can help;  Using a low mass string, using the minimum amount of center serving, using a light tie-on nock point like silk thread,and not the metallic ones, optimum nock fit, just enough to hold the weight of the arrow on the string, and as Rob mentioned holding the bow properly and not in a strangle hold.  Of all the designs I've made, the bows I made for my own personal use, and won't part with, are all string follow ASL designs.   But if you get one, and shoot it, and can't stand the hand shock, change a few things, start with the string, and go from there.

[Ken E.]

String material makes a huge difference in how a longbow feels.  My longbows like D97

[Baylee]

All I shoot and hunt with are ASL longbows ,and for a long time now. I know a lot of guys that hunt with ASLs also. I think the people that shoot them like a recurve with a high wrist etc. are an anomaly. The ASL with the narrow wedge grip low brace height and full hand down grip has been proven for decades by Hill, Swinehart, Schulz and thousands of others. It is a personal choice but everyone I’ve known that try’s to modify the Hill method usually shoots a high brace height and heavy arrows in an effort to tame down their bow. I’ve found non of that necessary.

[Kirkll]

I've never really got into building a true ASL design with a straight bow profile, or string follow shape unstrung. So i'm curious about where the pressure point is balanced to the limbs on this design?

Common sense doesn't always play a factor when trying to figure things out, but my common sense  says that if some of these bows are more user friend than others when heeling down on the grip that the limbs are balanced to a lower pivot point than a standard R/D long bow.  I'm curious if that is the case?      Kirk