Bare shaft, nock high.

[Sojurn]

So this question is mostly academic, but it's something I cant figure out and it bothers me.  It keeps me up at night. I pace. My wife asked the other day if she should be worried. My one year old's first words were "Daddy? Why does that arrow fly like that?"
 
  Some of this may not be true.
 
 But here's what's happening.  I'm trying to pick arrows for a new bow. I've shot 4 different sets of shafts and so far it likes the most expensive ones (naturally), Black Eagle Instincts.   The 500 and 400 spine shafts fly like darts with one notable exception,  the 500's are nock high. Like really nock high. like 4 inch's at 3 yards.
  Since the tail left/right on the 500 is close enough that I could cut it or drop poundage to make it fly well, I suspect it's on the edge of proper stiffness. But that 400 spine is tuned perfect. I just don't understand why I'm getting such a nock high reading. I moved my nocking point on the string around, my tiller is set even on the bow, I even checked the FOC on the arrow wondering if it was being pulled down but at 18% it's in the normal range.
  Has any one else ever seen this?
 

[McDave]

What is your nock height?

By the way, my belief is that you have to pretty much ignore nock right/left if nock high/low is way out of wack, and vice-versa, because both of them interrelate to some degree.  I think both need to be within 10* of straight before tuning really begins.

[Jack Denbow]

I had that problem once and a wise old sage told me how to fix it. The tail end of arrow is bouncing off the shelf when it flexed, just slightly but enough to give you the nock high.
The cure was to build up the shelf no wider than the arrow. I use a piece of the fuzzy part of self-adhesive Velcro, that is usually enough for me. You will have to reset your nocking point.
Internet "experts" chased the old sage away. Tis a shame as he was a wealth of knowledge and now, he is no longer with us.
I think this will fix your problem.
Jack

[Sojurn]

The arrow on the right is the 400 shaft. I can't ask for muck more than that, and these are very repeatable results.
  The tail high ends up being 2.5(ish) inches and that's the best I can make it.  I found d that be lowering my nocking point, the tail high got better, but any lower and both arrows will start reading weak. This is also something I've never come across.
  I could maybe lower the nicking point and then move the rest out (I think moving away from center shot for a weak spine is the correct move), but I'm so close to parallel on nocking point already that doesn't seem like the move.

  On the issue of shelf bounce, because I'm shooting a springy rest, if I was getting bounce I would also be getting a tail right indication (I think). And I dont think it would have gotten better as I lowered the nicking point. 

[Sam McMichael]

If I was getting performance like that picture of the 400, I'd quit tuning and go hunting.

[Sojurn]

I am certainly shooting the 400s. Like I said, this is mostly academic.  I dont like not knowing what's going on with that other arrow.

[McDave]

I have had similar unexplainable tuning results from time to time, and understand your curiosity, because I feel the same way whenever something like that happens.  If that had happened to me, I believe it would almost certainly have to be a shelf bounce that is happening with the .500 spine arrow and not with the .400 spine arrow.  But I don't use a springy rest, so have no useful input as to how that might affect the problem.

No doubt you are justifiably happy with the tuning results with the .400 shaft and don't want to change anything.  Again, if it were me, I would experiment with the strike plate that was provided by Hoyt for use with the built-in shelf rest.  I hated it at first, because it is so darn ugly.  After initially putting it on the bow to see how it worked, I replaced it with a flipper rest.  However, all my other bows have shelf rests, and I found that I wasn't using the Satori very much because I really didn't like the flipper rest either.  So even though it really is a Mickey Mouse piece of $hit, I put the Hoyt strike plate back on the bow, and found that arrows shot beautifully using it with the built-in shelf rest.  So I got used to it and now I kind of like it, and I certainly shoot the Satori a lot more than I did before.

[Sojurn]

I heard so many bad things about that rest, I didn't even pull it out of the plastic. I've been happy with the springy so far. Now rhat things are warming up, I'm looking forward to shooting this thing at distance.

[Brianlocal3]

I am curious to see if anyone else contributes to this post.

I can pretty much tell you I walked away from traditional archery for almost 3 years because I went down such a rabbit hole of tuning conundrums it completely messed up my shooting and enjoyment of the sport.

 I recently re-picked up my Bows,  All be it very sparingly due to family obligations

I am a pretty decent shot and can hold my own against most at three day tournaments, and I can get my broad heads to hit the target acceptably out to 30 yards,

But the very second I go to start trying to bear shaft my arrows do everything but what they’re supposed to.

To the point where it causes me to second-guess the arrows that I’m shooting that are landing in the bull’s-eye lol.

My goal is to eventually be able to fully share chef tune and arrow to hit the bull’s-eye at 20 yards.

No matter what I’ve done with any arrow I’ve ever had 100percent get a 4 inch Nock high

[Sojurn]

Brian, without seeing you shoot or knowing more,  I would guess that you shoot split finger.  I've seen it before where the top finger puts a lot of pressure down on the arrow at full draw causing a bend.  At release. The arrow flexes up causing the nock high flight with bare shaft. 
  To fix it,  shoot 3 under or shoot a tab with the plastic divider between your knuckles.  And punch that divider really hard through the shot.

[buckeyebowhunter]

I'm pretty far from being an expert but almost every bow ive ever bare shaft tuned shot nock high at least slightly. I think it may have something to do with shooting 3 under, like a tiller issue. But honestly the only hindrance ive ever gotten from this is broadheads will hit just slightly lower than field points. Which is irritating to the perfectionist like me but ive never had any issues hunting with them and killing deer. Good luck.

[Tajue17]

When i got arrow nock high i raised my string nock...  you could also be shooting with uneven tension on the string fingers or high elbow.   I should mention my experience is with traditional style bows not ilf bows. 

[Terry Green]

Moved here from Shooting Form Forum. 

[Overspined]

So this question is mostly academic, but it's something I cant figure out and it bothers me.  It keeps me up at night. I pace. My wife asked the other day if she should be worried. My one year old's first words were "Daddy? Why does that arrow fly like that?"
 
  Some of this may not be true.
 
 But here's what's happening.  I'm trying to pick arrows for a new bow. I've shot 4 different sets of shafts and so far it likes the most expensive ones (naturally), Black Eagle Instincts.   The 500 and 400 spine shafts fly like darts with one notable exception,  the 500's are nock high. Like really nock high. like 4 inch's at 3 yards.
  Since the tail left/right on the 500 is close enough that I could cut it or drop poundage to make it fly well, I suspect it's on the edge of proper stiffness. But that 400 spine is tuned perfect. I just don't understand why I'm getting such a nock high reading. I moved my nocking point on the string around, my tiller is set even on the bow, I even checked the FOC on the arrow wondering if it was being pulled down but at 18% it's in the normal range.
  Has any one else ever seen this?
 

The second I read this heading, I knew it would be carbons…

[Sojurn]

I suppose I don't know how I'm supposed to take that.  Is it a problem for you that this involves carbon arrows?
  Do you know why I was getting nock high flight?
Do you believe this wouldn't have happened with a different shaft material?

[Radford]

I am curious to see if anyone else contributes to this post.

I can pretty much tell you I walked away from traditional archery for almost 3 years because I went down such a rabbit hole of tuning conundrums it completely messed up my shooting and enjoyment of the sport.

 I recently re-picked up my Bows,  All be it very sparingly due to family obligations

I am a pretty decent shot and can hold my own against most at three day tournaments, and I can get my broad heads to hit the target acceptably out to 30 yards,

But the very second I go to start trying to bear shaft my arrows do everything but what they’re supposed to.

To the point where it causes me to second-guess the arrows that I’m shooting that are landing in the bull’s-eye lol.

My goal is to eventually be able to fully share chef tune and arrow to hit the bull’s-eye at 20 yards.

No matter what I’ve done with any arrow I’ve ever had 100percent get a 4 inch Nock high

I am the exact same. I don’t bother with bareshaft tuning anymore. For me it is a complete waste of time. I have wasted days trying to tune like that. Now I just tune my broadheads to my field points. I’m much happier and spend a fraction of the time. And I shoot really well. Adcock nailed it and even said people over complicate tuning.

[the rifleman]

I've felt at times that bareshafting was driving me up the wall and I can remember two times that I just canned it and got my broadheads hitting where my field points hit at 25 yards and called it good.  Both of these times not coincidentally I was struggling with form issues and changes.  Once was about three years ago---I got a 500 spine black eagle instinct with 275 up front Zwickey Eskimo plus outsert (535 grains) flying great.  Killed a nice doe at 10 yards with it out of a BW 40# PCHX.  This year I shot the same black eagle instinct with 100 grain outsert and 125 stinger and killed a buck at just over 20 yards with no penetration issues out of a 42# Toelke Whip.
But being the curious type, after both kills I bareshafted these set ups and was horrified to find the bareshaft flying seriously stiff.  The BW needed a 600 spine and the Whip needed an 800 spine at my then 26.25" draw length.  There was just no way that the 500 spine set ups were anywhere near tuned in these bows and the bareshaft showed me this.  I knew better each time, but because I was struggling I called broadhead tuning good enough.  I believe my broadheads flew ok because they are both relatively low profile and the 3.75 inch 3 fletch must have corrected issues, but I still wonder what I left on the table in terms of performance since the feathers were working to correct an out of tune arrow.
This is just my experience and I offer it just as that.  I have really worked on my form this year since filling my last tag and am finding that the frustration I was having with bareshafts has disappeared.  I do always keep a bareshaft handy and am always playing with it---I admit, I need to do less of this and once a set up is tuned, I need to call it good and revisit the bareshaft to confirm less frequently.
I know that folks have killed deer for years without ever having shot a bareshaft and know first hand that it can be done.  But for me, shooting lower poundage set ups, I have much more confidence when I know that I'm tuned as well as I can be and that I'm not leaving anything on the table in terms of performance.

[Sojurn]

I believe some of us are missing the point of this particular post. I wasn't trying to shoot the nock high arrow as my usable arrow. I just wanted to know why that shaft was showing that behavior.
  The whole reason for me posting this topic was as a more of a thought excorcise. A way to learn something and expand my (and maybe someone else's) understanding of the relationship between archer, arrow, and bow.
  If that's not a thing you want to be a part of, or if you have a different method, that's fine. And I'm not trying to discredit things like walk back tuning or broadhead tuning, but that's not the point here.
  And for what it's worth, I'm also not trying to discourage people from commenting. Just trying g to keep us on track.

[5deer]

 

[Overspined]

Nock high can be a multitude of things. Most have been mentioned.  I see carbons do it more than any other arrow type, without even a little exception.  It could be inherent in your form, form vs arrow recovery, arrow spine/weight combo, nock height, messy bow build, nock tightness, brace height, finger pressure, release and even bow weight to release.  Some people have a hard time with low bow weight not ripping the string from the hand. My main fix is first get rid of carbons. It’s so easy to tune aluminum or wood. Then, once you are convinced you can shoot a straight arrow, go back to getting crazy messing with carbons. I gave up shooting carbons except out of my one recurve. I’ve seen many fix it with moving away from carbons.  That said, some folks have zero issue. I think carbons just recover so fast, many don’t have a good enough, or quiet enough form to use them. So when your shooting sucks, move to aluminum or wood.  Generally speaking a touch of nock high probably isn’t poor at all. Like someone said fletch em and go hunting.

I’m in the camp that tune with broadheads, and work backwards. Nothing will exaggerate poor arrow flight like throwing a broadhead on the end.