Author Topic: First time build.  (Read 6900 times)

Online Kirkll

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Re: First time build.
« Reply #20 on: April 04, 2022, 01:08:08 PM »
I started out with a Bingham's one piece long bow kit in 2006, and I still have that bow today. Then I built their take down recurve next. It was good experience. I think it’s a great way to start out.

To answer you question, there are many many ways to screw up even the most simple bow design. The most important thing to remember when getting started is the forms you build need to be very precise with everything exactly square edged, and both ends of the one piece design need to match perfectly.   You need to build a router template and shape both ends with the same template.

I would recommend this type material for  your forms rather than laminated plywood. This first one is Paralam material.

https://www.weyerhaeuser.com/woodproducts/engineered-lumber/parallam-psl/parallam-psl-beams/

This one Is LVL material

https://www.menards.com/main/building-materials/trusses-i-joists-engineered-lumber/laminated-veneer-lumber-lvl-strand-lumber/1-3-4-x-11-1-4-lvl-1-9e/1063466/p-1444438526858-c-5663.htm?tid=-3058927007803359705&ipos=6

After building forms with this stuff, I would never go back to plywood.   


Warning!  This bow building is VERY addictive. I fell in love with the whole process much more than archery itself.     Kirk
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Offline Buemaker

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Re: First time build.
« Reply #21 on: April 04, 2022, 01:15:41 PM »
What is the difference between LVL and laminated plywood??

Online Kirkll

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Re: First time build.
« Reply #22 on: April 04, 2022, 01:41:17 PM »
What is the difference between LVL and laminated plywood??

The difference is stability and strength. The LVL is built for strength without any blows or hollow spots found in plywood. That and you don’t have to worry about twist…..   a twisted bow form is a nightmare.   Kirk
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Offline Robertfishes

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Re: First time build.
« Reply #23 on: April 04, 2022, 05:37:55 PM »
In 2009 I was able to buy cabinet grade Birch plywood from a local cabinet shop. They bought in bulk so I was able to get a good price.   The Birch was very smooth and straight, I'm not sure if I can buy from them anymore...Building boom here and they are super busy...  I needed good Bow Form Plywood 8 years ago I had to buy a sheet of the high grade stuff from Lowes. I did not see any LVL or I would have bought some.  Do you run the LVL thru your wide belt sander to get sides smooth and to the correct width?

Online Kirkll

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Re: First time build.
« Reply #24 on: April 04, 2022, 07:11:38 PM »
No need to do anything with the thickness. It’s 1 3/4” thick already. All I did was seal it really well after I got the shape milled. I set up a 2” straight cutter with a bearing, and used 1/4” MDF for pattern stock. Very little finish sanding needed and no edge banding needed with this stuff. 

Some of my one piece laminated plywood forms I built years ago developed a slight twist in them over time. I straightened a couple of them and edge banded them using a piece of angle iron to straighten them and hold it straight.  Nothing worse than starting out with twisted limbs right out of the form.

I went to a lumber yard that sells quite a bit of this stuff and was able to purchase a couple of 12” x 18’ pieces and they cut it to 6’ lengths. I still have about 12’ left.

I discontinued most of my one piece bows due to demand  except the Flatliner & Stealth designs . That form is about 12 years old and needs to be rebuilt. I figured the next order I get for one, I’ll roll up my sleeves and mill a new form.

When I do that I’ll post a form build a long just for fun.

Btw…. On forms for 1.5” glass and lam width using this 1.75” LVL material I just take a router and mill the edge of the cut out on the bottom form so I can zip tie my 1.5” stack  centered up, and leave the top form at 1.75”. Much easier to keep my air hose centered.   I haven’t tried sanding off a 1/4” thickness in my drum sander. Didn’t see the need to.     Kirk
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Offline JGR1269

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Re: First time build.
« Reply #25 on: April 04, 2022, 07:22:32 PM »
I do the same thing Kirk does. I started out 25 years ago building them with plywood but now LVL is the only way to go for me. I hate to think how many plywood forms I have tossed in the burn pile because of twist.

Offline Appalachian Hillbilly

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Re: First time build.
« Reply #26 on: April 05, 2022, 06:48:46 AM »
Kirk, have you ever had any issues with the zip ties? I was wondering if you could feel where they were in the lams due to a pressure spot on each ty wrap ?

Offline Mad Max

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Re: First time build.
« Reply #27 on: April 05, 2022, 08:09:54 AM »
Kirk, have you ever had any issues with the zip ties? I was wondering if you could feel where they were in the lams due to a pressure spot on each ty wrap ?

I use zip ties all the time
I use a pressure strip, it's a .029 piece of sheet metal on top of the stack.

I think Big Jim's bow company has them :thumbsup:

https://bigjimsbowcompany.com/product/20-ga-steel-pressure-strip-2/
I would rather fail at something above my means, than to succeed at something  beneath my means  
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Online Stagmitis

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Re: First time build.
« Reply #28 on: April 05, 2022, 09:48:27 AM »
Kirk I had a bad experience with LVL forms and so did a friend. I unfortunately built several bows  :knothead: before I and he figured it out. In both cases they develped an almost imperceptable propeller twist- Im anal about string alignment and could never get them right
Stagmitis

Online Kirkll

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Re: First time build.
« Reply #29 on: April 05, 2022, 10:08:28 AM »
Kirk, have you ever had any issues with the zip ties? I was wondering if you could feel where they were in the lams due to a pressure spot on each ty wrap ?

Like Max said above. You load your lams, put your pressure strip over them, THEN use your zip ties. Oh Ive screwed up a couple times in the past and put the ties right on my glass before, and had perfect zip tie indentations on my limbs. These make great tomato stakes though…. :knothead:

I’ve also found there is a fine line between using cheap zip ties, and the heavy duty ones….the cheap ones strip out too easy trying to pull a recurve limb in tight to the form, and the seriously heavy zip ties are tough to work with. Finding just the right ones make it easier.

When I was first getting started we all used to use flat washers on the edge of our forms to hold the lams straight. And that works ok if you are just using pressure strips and an air hose clamping system in a hot box. Or even the peg and inner tubing type clamping system in a hot box….. but I quickly moved to using heat strips after the first year of building bows. 

The heat strips we used 10- 15 years ago were flexible silicone strips that plugged in to 110. Unfortunately they were not cheap, and they burn out or broke to easily, and the manufacturer wouldn’t warranty them after awhile. I used to distribute them myself until they wouldn’t stand behind their product….

The next step was an innovative bowyer I knew built some low voltage heat strips himself and I ran those prototypes for awhile hoping to build a better mouse trap.
But those were too fragile and didn’t hold up well. Oh they worked perfectly….. but we’re not dependable.

Then Brandon Stahl from Rose Oak Creations came up with a system using 22 gage stainless steel pressure strips and hooking them up to a battery charger with a voltage regulator for temp control. I think that was about 2014… can’t remember
Exactly …. maybe 2013. This system works excellent and I’ve used it ever since.

Your pressure strips ARE your heat strips, and cure a set of limbs or a bow in less than an hour…… but….. and there always seems to be a lot of butts in life. This system is serious battery charger abuse, and the chargers only last so long. I get about 100 bows out of one before they go boots up…… Another issue is finding the right kind of charger is getting  harder to do. You need one with manual adjustment capabilities.  These new electronic ones with the automatic safety features won’t work at all. They are built so you cannot over load them, and that slight overload is what gives you the heat.

Last year I really had to look hard to find one that would work, and paid a couple hundred bucks for it too. I really like this system, but wouldn’t mind if some innovative bowyer would come up with something better.

I know they use nichrome in silicone heat strips, and there should be a way to build something durable enough to meet our needs, but nobody has.  I haven’t looked into it real seriously, and probably won’t until I’m forced to do so…..


Kirk
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Online Kirkll

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Re: First time build.
« Reply #30 on: April 05, 2022, 10:15:17 AM »
Kirk I had a bad experience with LVL forms and so did a friend. I unfortunately built several bows  :knothead: before I and he figured it out. In both cases they develped an almost imperceptable propeller twist- Im anal about string alignment and could never get them right

Ah man ….. I’m sorry to hear that bro.  I don’t believe the material I bought  was actually LVL brand. I think it was made by warehouser and called paralam material. I haven’t had any issues and I have forms that are 5-6 years old and built a lot of limbs.     

Having a form twist is about the worst thing that can happen to a guy. Especially just a slight twist that goes unnoticed. I’ll look into the brand I used again to make sure I got it right.      Thanks for sharing that bro…. Kirk   
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Offline Flem

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Re: First time build.
« Reply #31 on: April 05, 2022, 10:23:06 AM »
Kirk, you might try a PC power supply. They can be set up for various DC voltage and amps outputs. Plus they can be had for cheap or free. I have one I converted to bench top power supply and use it for all kinds of projects.

Online Kirkll

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Re: First time build.
« Reply #32 on: April 05, 2022, 10:57:36 AM »
Kirk, you might try a PC power supply. They can be set up for various DC voltage and amps outputs. Plus they can be had for cheap or free. I have one I converted to bench top power supply and use it for all kinds of projects.

The variable voltage power supply is not the issue bro…I’ve got a decent DC control box….. .it’s finding a heating element material that is flexible enough, and will hold up to 50-60 psi with an air hose that can be used with a pressure strip. They still sell those silicone heat strips, but they don’t last long at all.


The stainless steel pressure strip system I use works excellent, but it’s seriously tough on battery chargers. I use a 10 amp rated AC voltage regulator to run the charger at lower voltage and control the temp. It typically runs at about 42 volts on 2 - 36” x 1.75” strips. It takes a bit higher voltage on the 6’ one piece strips.
The only thing that needs to be done with using a battery charger at low voltage is that you need to wire the cooling fan direct to 110 or you’ll burn it up.


Kirk
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Online Stagmitis

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Re: First time build.
« Reply #33 on: April 05, 2022, 11:15:04 AM »
Kirk I jogged my memory in setting up the LVL form

I ran it through my sander on both sides to get from 1.75 to get to 1.5, in turn invading the contigious exterior laminations!

Maybe you you had no issues because as you suggested you used a router to get the width leaving the exterior intact.
Stagmitis

Offline Appalachian Hillbilly

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Re: First time build.
« Reply #34 on: April 05, 2022, 12:27:11 PM »
Our plant got flooded a few years back. Lots of big DC motors. They were turned off before they flooded. We hosed them out with contact cleaner, hooked a welder to the leads and used that to dry them out.

I used to hook a welder to a homemade tire groover that used hacksaw blades.  Just control the heat with the settings

Online Kirkll

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Re: First time build.
« Reply #35 on: April 05, 2022, 01:56:48 PM »
Kirk I jogged my memory in setting up the LVL form

I ran it through my sander on both sides to get from 1.75 to get to 1.5, in turn invading the contigious exterior laminations!

Maybe you you had no issues because as you suggested you used a router to get the width leaving the exterior intact.

You know something..... You may have something there bro... I don't have many 1.5" glass forms any more, so very little need for narrow forms. I'm running 1.75" glass on all my TD limbs now even though i could go to 1.5" on the long bows.

I get better consistency in my glass strength buying 20-40 pcs at a time and watching how i cut it up.  It would be even better to buy directly from Gordon Glass by the 100 count. But i dont build that many bows any more to justify those quantities.

 For you guys buying PB glass by the roll.... i don't see how you hit your draw weights consistently. I never had much luck with BP glass myself. If i was mass producing economy priced bows, i could see using the stuff and just mark draw weight as they come out. and stack em up...

Kirk
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Offline Flem

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Re: First time build.
« Reply #36 on: April 05, 2022, 03:39:39 PM »
Kirk,how many amps are you pulling when heating?. Have you  tried nichrome strips?
Most heating wires and tape run on 120V, why are you using DC?

Online Kirkll

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Re: First time build.
« Reply #37 on: April 05, 2022, 07:01:48 PM »
Kirk,how many amps are you pulling when heating?. Have you  tried nichrome strips?
Most heating wires and tape run on 120V, why are you using DC?

No I haven’t tried nichrome strips, and I don’t have a good reason why I’m using DC voltage.

This system was introduced to me, and I ran with it.  Here is my set up. I typically adjust the voltage regulator to between 47-48 dc amps. This is running 50 amps in the photo.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/HTXBr7Cqzq36uN2o6

Kirk
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Online BO-R

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Re: First time build.
« Reply #38 on: April 05, 2022, 07:32:53 PM »
I use the same setup with great results..

Offline Appalachian Hillbilly

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Re: First time build.
« Reply #39 on: April 05, 2022, 07:37:34 PM »
Kirk, how do you regulate the heat? Just with the voltage and then it will only heat to X with X amount of current?

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