Are we "over thinking" it....??

[McDave]

I've been monitoring this thread and enjoying it. I only have one question.  How is filming one's self to show what they are taking about a 'bucket list'?  I mean that's not even close to the meaning of the phrase.

A bucket list is a list of things you aspire to do before you die.  TSP does not aspire to film himself before he dies, therefore it is not on his bucket list.  Works.  Perhaps not as dramatic as saying going to outer space before he dies is not on his bucket list, but that's what makes it funny.  Reverse hyperbole, or understatement.

[MSU]

If one hunts different species, and in a variety of terrain and conditions, different " forms " may be required. Standing, kneeling, crouching, sitting, all require slightly different alignment and muscle use for me. And yes, many seem to over think the process.

[TSP]

Every day that we over-analyze what we do for fun rather than simply enjoying the fun of doing it is in my view overthinking it.  In that vein, a 'simple stick and string' can without question be shot simply and effectively by many, without the learning process being too slide-rule perfect. 

As with most things, archery comes easier to some than to others and that for sure has some weight on the 'how to do it' part, but we shouldn't be too quick to overcomplicate the learning steps when simplicity in how we first approach it might work just as well, and in terms of self-satisfaction perhaps even better than, a multi-step cookie cutter approach.  Something worth considering if your instinctive shooting experience seems more dominated by struggles with how-to steps and frustrating cases of target panic than what you originally hoped for.

[mgf]

Some people enjoy analyzing. 

The only frustration I've ever gotten from archery is trying to find a place to hunt I can afford (fail so far) and years of lousy shooting because I started out all wrong..."wrong" defined as it didn't work very well.

Back in the beginning I bought a bow and just started shooting. I hit my target just often enough to let me believe that I knew what I was doing. I didn't and the result was a great deal of frustration over more years than I care to think about. I little "analysis" or form instruction could have made a big difference. Knowing how and why gives me control and the ability to reproduce results that I just didn't have for all those years.

IMO hunting doesn't present exceptions to "form" but rather applications where it's that much more important. A hunter will benefit as much from understanding the mechanics as any target shooter. The goal is still to hit what you're shooting at.

Some people are naturals or prodigies most of us aren't.

[woodchucker]

Well, I'll jump in again...

After a month of watching the Bear DVD set, and noticing that the brought boxes (plural) of hunting arrows with them. I will say again, I find it hard to believe, that each arrow was "tuned" to their bow.
MATCHED yes!! For spine, and point weight. But tuned?? I think not...

I personally, do not tune my arrows. It's a personal thing...
I do not bare shaft. Early man put feathers on arrows for a reason....
All of my arrows are matched. Length, spine, point weight, and fletching. My son builds them for me.
I can take an arrow, from any old set of arrows, and shoot it... They ALL fly the same.

My problem with "tuning" is that we have new folks here, that read our posts.
They see posts about bare shafting, and heavy FOC, different types & weights of broadheads.
I think they start to believe that the only way to become a good shot, is to "build" the perfect arrow.
Trying to build the perfect arrow, and tune it to your bow BEFORE you learn to shoot GOOD,
Is simply putting the cart, before the horse!!

Man has evolved over time, and things have changed...
It's only human nature to try and "build a better mouse trap".
But in the beginning, you have to learn to walk, before you can run...

Find a set-up you're happy with, and stick with it!!!
Keep it simple..... 

Just one old fart's opinion...

[TSP]

Regarding the sensibility and usefulness of finding a version of form that works for you, it isn't that form is unnecessary or can't improve one's shooting.  I hope that point is already clear.  Of course it can help you!  And it will make you a better archer in the long run regardless of whether target shooting or hunting is the goal.  My point is, 'good form' is a very personalized thing and as such is best developed by the shooter to fit his/her 'what works for me' intuitions, over time, rather than simply copying someone else's pictures and book narrative simply because they shoot well.   Doing 'good form' as promoted by others might be very helpful.  But then again it might be an awful fit that presents more problems for you than it does fixes.

For example, watch the form of ten different experienced 'good' shooters...those who have shot for awhile and can shoot relatively well.  You will likely see ten approaches that have both differences and similarities.  Some of the differences may be markedly off from those often portrayed as 'good form', or put another way, the differences are often regarded by others as 'bad form'.  And yet, their form works quite well for them as proven by their shooting results.  You might even see someone try to demonstrate form characteristics that they insist are the 'right' way to shoot (based on what they have seen others do or have read about), yet their actual/observable form is quite different than what they 'thought' they were doing (that happens alot, lol).  This is one situation where a picture probably WOULD be helpful for showing aspects of their shot that might benefit from some tweaking, but again the main point is that good form can be (and often is) amazingly variable between individuals.  It's something best digested  over time, using practice and self-taught common sense.  It can either be complicated (your choice) or simple (again your choice).  But whatever you choose it to be, it is ALWAYS secondary to what your mind tells you, as in what you are trying to hit.  That is what happens before form begins.  What your eyes focus on and how they perceive the 'spot', well before any components of drawing and shooting come into play...come first and control any later variables relating to where to put one's arms. legs, hands, fingers, head angle or any other body parts that are positioned before shooting.  Learning how to focus is the first priority, every time.  Oddly, it is usually the least discussed and most forgotten part of the learning process.

Put another way, if a new or inexperienced shooter allows their body part manipulation sequence (whatever they or others deem it to be) to take precedent over how they focus on the mark they want to hit, they will be far more likely to develop complications that hurt their shooting more than help it. 

Patience in learning what comes first and (over time) what works best... is worth its weight in gold. 

Don't ask me how I know that, lol.

[mgf]

The basics of good form is mechanics. Some shapes are stronger than others. The advantage of coming close to a very strong shape is that it makes it much easier to handle the weight a be repeatable.

The reason that aiming or "the spot" is talked about less is because it's the easy part. If you can repeat the shot the arrows hit the same place. Pointing them someplace else in easy.

By contrast poor form results in a shot that's hard to control and harder to repeat. Concentrate hard as you like but a coin toss is a more accurate predictor of where the arrow will land.

[GCook]

Wood I don't think most advocate building the perfect arrow first.  I think most will tell you that tuning is a waste of time until your mechanics and form are right and consistent.
Get a set up that is close and work on the stuff that counts.  Only then will tuning give you the results and benefits.
That said those guys that say any old arrow works are the same one blaming the broadhead when they get four inches of penetration and a running animal with the arrow waving bye bye as it runs off with that running animal never more to be seen.
As far are when to learn to aim, well YMMV.

[McDave]

I agree with TSP that no two good archers shoot with identical good form.  Variations can be minor, like how much time to spend holding at full draw, or major, like the difference between horse archery and Olympic archery.

However, any good archer would recommend not doing the following things, learning to be aware of when these mistakes are made, and how to correct them:

Creeping
Plucking
Peeking
Dropping the bow arm prematurely
Losing concentration
Not focusing on the spot
Not coming to full draw and anchoring*
Inconsistent alignment*
Torquing
Grabbing the bow handle on release
Unsafe practices, like extending a bow hand finger when drawing a broadhead, etc.
Failure to follow through*

*Granted, I have seen trick shots where an expert shooter doesn't seem to worry about the things I asterisked, and still hits the target, but for our purposes here, we should still consider the things on this list to be errors the average shooter needs to be aware of and how to correct.

Teaching a new shooter to recognize these errors, and some I probably forgot to put on the list, and how to correct them, is a big part of the “form” training I do.  I don't teach any of these things in the abstract; always immediately after observing them.  Shooters who come to me for help are usually frustrated because they can see by their results that they are doing something wrong, but don't know exactly what it is.  Rather than spending years going down blind alleys, they can quickly be put on the right track if a knowledgeable instructor observes what they're doing.

[MSU]

Yes, many overthink it. With practice, the traditional bow is relatively easy to master at shorter ranges. I think when some try to make a long range weapon out of one best designed for shorter ranges ( for me about 22 yards and less )  then the lines get blurred, especially for those who shoot without a sight aid. I like to keep my hunting simple and enjoyable. We all have our own goals and objectives, mine are not very high and therefore they are easily achievable. My suggestion would be to set realistic goals and not try to push the limits of the simple bow and arrow, keep it fun.

[Bowwild]

I too started many years ago.

I have a great appreciation for understanding my equipment and to make sure my practice and hunting sessions are more a result of my execution (no pun intended) and not hindered by equipment set-up.

I remember in the early days not knowing much about matching arrows to the bow. Sometimes I got lucky and true flight was achieved. Other times wind-planing of broadheads caused me to miss. I blamed this on the broadhead and tried different ones.

I wish I had known more about some of the technical aspects of equipment set-up and shooting process that first decade that I've known the past 4 decades.  For me, the technical issues only add to the off-season intrigue and fun of archery.

[Pmringer]

Late to the discussion but I have to agree.  I personally started over thinking and messing with ILF and tech bows after starting with longbows and it sucked the fun out of it.  I went back to wood arrows and selfbows and simply shoot knowing that I wood arrows are not perfect and I am shooting them from a crooked, definitely not perfect, Osage stick.  It became enjoyable again.  It forces you to shoot better and practice more.  Tech can be fun but it also has people worrying about tuning to the point of indiscernible change and rather than shooting and learning to shoot well.  When you see guys shooting off the knuckle with stone points and crooked arrows consistently taking game while the ILF super tune "hunter" is wounding animals it says a lot.

Again, nothing wrong with that but keeping it simple can be beneficial.  In my case it is and makes things way more fun! 

[Tim Reese]

The one thing I noticed watching those bear videos is usually all he took was a knife, Bino’s and his bow and quiver. Not much else. That makes me envious not taking a stand and other gear most carry today.

[GCook]

Well put Roy.

[TGbow]

My Dad got me n my brothers into archery in 1975. We knew very little but we asked questions and read up on what we could find.
We usef wood and aluminum. I do think it's  smart to tune our bows n arrows as best we can.
It did seem simpler back them though. Pick up a 2016 with 125 grain head..shooting 45 lbs..good to go.
I like to keep it simple..doesn't mean I don't experiment sometimes.
Never heard of bare shafting back then but we could tell when am arrow was flying straight, though in the beginning it took us a little while to figure it out.

[Sam McMichael]

One might jokingly say that the fact that this thread has lasted so long shows that we tend to overthink this game. Probably we do tend to do that. Even a simpleton like me does it. For example, consider form. Most of us strive for a more or less "standardized" form". We all make certain adjustments as we progress. During this time of learning, we try many things, some which turn out to be mere gimmicks and some that significantly contributed to our proficiency with the bow. But as we get older and more experienced, I think we tend to overthink less often. We find what makes a productive routine, and we stick to it. Overthinking is not necessarily a bad thing unless we get so absorbed in the "lesson" that we fail to grasp the kernels of wisdom. But I think even the most compulsive of us eventually figure out what is best for us and go with it. Besides, it may well be the overthinkers who come with each new breakthrough

[woodchucker]

Actually, this thread lasted WAY longer, than I thought it would...

[Kirkll]

My point being, Years ago, people picked up a bow and arrows, and PRACTICED untill they got good!!

These days, it seems (to me) that folks are looking for a "quick way" to get good.
That if everything is perfectly matched and tuned. they should be able to hit the target every time.
If they don't???? Well, they should have a perfect group "somewhere" to help them figure out why not??
Maybe this comes from the compound bows?? Keep fiddling and adjusting, untill you get it right...

I had to go back and read the OPs questions again... This thread got way longer than i thought it would, but has brought a lot of things to consider....

To answer the 1st question... The very same guy who practiced until he got good was out there shooting a new batch of arrows he just built, and couldn't help but notice that one of his arrows was constantly off the mark, and a second one off the mark in a different direction....

In the old days you just break those two arrows over your knee, and keep the good ones. (Fred Bear style i'm sure)  End of story.... I used the same type of tuning method myself. If they don't fly right... get rid of them. I don't want an arrow in my quiver that doesn't fly right.

But there are those certain types of people that want to know why those two perfectly good arrows are not flying the same. Is it overthinking it to use a spine tester, and possibly rotate a nock to set these weird flying shafts back into the bulls eye?   I think not...


The second question is.  If your arrow shafts are spine matched and perfectly balanced,  you are right...You should be able to shoot much more accurately with matched arrows.... IF not.... It's your own inconsistencies that are causing the problem.....  Figure it out, or live with it....

But lets go back to the point where you are already shooting good.... If you have matched arrows and maintain your form you will shoot better, and you will KNOW when a missed shot is due to your ooops rather than the arrow..... If it's the same arrow shooting right or left, than you know it's the shaft.

I'm the kind of guy who believes you only get out what you put into anything you do. I don't think spending time building perfectly matched arrows is overthinking anything.  If we are talking shooting style, form, release, or heaven forbid target panic... I believe this stuff gets way too much overthinking at times.

Kirk

[TSP]

Here's an experienced fellow that is a successful instinctive hunter, a very good shot, and who explains and demonstrates very effectively the importance of not 'overthinking' the shot. 

First and foremost, above all else, establish and practice one's focus on the spot.  Without the need to think about how you do it. 

Second, don't allow the intricacies of adopting complicated form be your downfall.  No matter how well you 'think' you have your long list of form components figured out during practice it won't translate well to the field, where scripting of a mental form checklist makes little sense and is largely impractical for shooting under pressures of the moment.

To put it simply, keep it simple.  It'll save you a truckload of headaches in the woods. 

 

[BAK]

One of the best videos I've seen in a long time.