Are we "over thinking" it....??

[woodchucker]

As some of you know, I've been "off the grid" for a month...
No cell phone, or land line. No internet. I had the VCR/DVD hooked up to the TV for a little "entertainment".

I was watching the Fred Bear DVD collection that I got a couple years ago from 3Rivers.
Ever since I was a kid, Fred Bear has been my childhood hero. I watched him on "Curt Gowdy's American Sportsman". I still remember sitting in front of the TV, I think I was about 7-8 years old...
Watching these DVDs brought back lots of memories.... and also got me thinking....

Watching Fred on his hunting trips, as they were unloading their gear, one of the things was a couple boxes of new Bear arrows. Fred would take the new arrows out, touch up the Razorheads with a file, then insert a new razorblade bleeder blade. and put them in his bow quiver.  Then, go hunting.

Now, I find it hard to believe, that each shaft was "tuned" and "bare shaft tested, etc.
Now bowhunters of that era, shot Field Archery courses, with at least one 80yd target.
Many of us today figure a 40yd target on a 3D course, a LONG shot!! (myself included)
My point being, Bowhunters decades ago, PRACTICED untill they became proficient.
(Not that we don't today, WE DO!! At least any ethical bowhunter does)

My point being... They all chose to pick up an "inferior" tool, to go hunting with. In spite of it's limitations.
If their arrows were a little stiff, and hit left, they held right. Heavy? hold higher....
Quite a bit of game was killed with "miss-matched" equipment....

I'm old. I remember buying a dozen wood hunting arrows in a box, at Montgomery Wards.
They were marked with length and spine. How close were they...?? 
I remember buying single field tipped arrows from a box of 100. They were marked, "For bows up to 40#"
(many times, I'd cut the field points off, and put broadheads on for hunting arrows)

My point being, Years ago, people picked up a bow and arrows, and PRACTICED untill they got good!!

These days, it seems (to me) that folks are looking for a "quick way" to get good.
That if everything is perfectly matched and tuned. they should be able to hit the target every time.
If they don't???? Well, they should have a perfect group "somewhere" to help them figure out why not??
Maybe this comes from the compound bows?? Keep fiddling and adjusting, untill you get it right...

Just one old farts observations... FRIENDLY debate PLEASE!!!!!
My "Riddle me This" thread went off the rails BAD, and I had the moderators lock it up.....

[PrimitivePete]

I agree loud and clear, my journey into traditional hunting took me from a simple setup to the latest and greatest bows, arrows, broadheads etc. I'm happy to say that I rely more on my selfbows now because besides knowing the limitations and shooting a super performing rig, my shooting has improved simply because I am more relaxed. Yes my bow doesn't sizzle an arrow, yes my arrows aren't made to blast through cinder block, yes I needed to reduce my effective range a bit, but the simple enjoyment of shooting a bow is stronger than ever. Yes I agree there is overthinking and overstriding in our sport pushed forward by our pursuit of better and best. Funny thing is, we might have already been there and back already.

[RIVERWOLF]

Watched Fred on American sportsmen also...Good times those were ...On the arrows...Well, some of those old wood arrows Fred (and others)were loosing in some of those videos were wood of a different color ....glass  to be more direct 

I would also go on a limb and say Fred likely took off the line what matched his rig from shooting a lot before his adventure. Spectulation as I wasn't there either 

Love those movies........

[woodchucker]

Very true!!! Fred did shoot glass arrows, and even aluminum!!
I shot glass arrows years ago too. What spine they were? I have no idea...
I bought them because of the interchangeable points....

Or perhaps, Fred had confidence in his manufacturing?? If the spine said 60-65#, that's what they were!!
Btw, another interesting part of the set shows the making of the Kodiak Magnum.
It was amazing to see the exacting standards and tolerances the machinery built these bows to, and the hand finishing that completed them!!

[GCook]

I'm not gonna lie.  I'm an over thinker.
However I think too many of you over romanticize the infallibility of guys like Bear and Hill.  They missed and wounded animals too.  Too many close associates and crew people have arrested to it  and not that it matters except that they did the best with what they had and what they knew. 
However that doesn't mean if you took a guy like Ishi, gave him a modern r&d longbow and matched arrows, broadheads and he learned to shoot it he wouldn't become a more lethal hunter and choose that over what he had access to.
You plink at the gun range and that cheap wolfe ammo out of that low end AR shooting a 6" group out of the factory sights is adequate to the plinker.
The hunter mounts a halfway decent scope and shoots some soft bullets and shoots a 3" group and thinks he good to go.
A sniper puts in a tricked out trigger, upgrades the barrel and scope, reloads until he's driving 3/8ths inch groups and still practices so he knows every range and wind adjustment.

Some of us want to know that when we go to a shoot we are least know we look like we've prepared and are knowledgeable about our discipline even if we aren't the best shooter out there. 
When we hit the woods we want to have worked out any imperfection in our equipment and as many of our personal ones so that animal gets as clean a kill as we can. 
And after all that we still come up short sometimes. 

So yeah, I may over think it.   I'm sure I over spend, over practice and over worry.  But, it works for me.  Most of the time.

[woodchucker]

Well said, Gary!!!

I shot split sapling bows and tomato stick arrows that my Grandpa made me as a kid.
I got my first real bow, a fiberglass Red Bear when I was 5 years old. I shot box arrows as much as I could afford.
About 12, my uncle gave me a 40# glass Ben Pearson recurve. Stalked acrossed a fresh mown hay field and killed a woodchuck at about 25 yards.
In 1976, at 16, I bought a Bear Alaskan recurve, from a neighbor's yard sale. That fall, I bought my first dozen matched hunting arrows. They were a beautiful set of Bear arrows. Brown painted shafts with blue cresting.
Helical fletched with parabolic feathers, 2 red hens and a white cock feather, white nocks, tipped with Razorheads.

I didn't dare shoot them LOL, I kept practicing with my big box field tip arrows.
I killed my first deer that year. A beautiful young Doe. My Dad and uncle, were driving a swail on his farm. I was standing next to a big dead tree on the edge, next to a field. About 10 deer ran past me through the swail, but the young doe ran out into the field. She stopped, looking around for the other deer she was with.
I drew and released.... Watching the arrow fly through the air, and into her ribs.
She ran acrossed the field toward a woodlot. She dropped in sight. Luck??? You betcha!!!

But it started a fire....

[David McLendon]

Products have evolved and been refined, computer programs for spine have been developed, people know more than back then possibly and the ability to arrive at a workable solution is easier, maybe. But all of this improvement can make one picky and then maybe over thinking comes into play, but does it really matter how you get there? The bow and arrow have been effective for centuries if not millennia, and the end result has not changed. It's how you get there that may or may not be different.

[Stringwacker]

It's often said that you can't judge the past by the standards of the present. I think accuracy expectations of the past were effected by not only the equipment of the time; but also the known methods of tuning of the era. It's well documented that Howard Hill would shoot a new batch of arrows at a 60 yard target and discard those that missed. That was his tuning method.

In short, having shot a bow during some of the OP referenced time period, I think a 'good' tune often was just a mere step away from 'good enough'. Stated more simply, you just did the best you could.... with what you had. It sure helped that you could shoot a wood arrow in a 20 pound spine range and they still shot reasonably well. I found out later, I couldn't duplicate that same forgiveness with aluminum.

Everyone follows the traditional journey in a way that gives them joy and satisfaction. I want the best tuned arrow as determined by the best tuning methods not as short cut to proficiency; but rather to be the best ethical and humane hunter that I can be.

As far as what Fred Bear did, we know Fred was the ultimate promoter. We don't know that the arrows taken out of a new arrow box was what he really used or...... was just something for the camera to sell his product. I saw something similar in almost all his video's.

[Bowguy67]

I agree but offer another consideration. It’s easy to “wing it” as in mentally adjusting when using instinctive or some form of as in split vision. Very different when using gap, walking etc.  I bet Fred didn’t gap shoot? I could be wrong but a little off is easily compensated for with instinctive and that might be some of it. Either way we’ve chosen a simpler and imo better tool for the job. Im all for bettering form in order to speed our ability to be consistent but overthinking/super analyzing/stressing about stuff is best left to wheel guys let’s just go hunting.

[Dave Lay]

I’m not one to tinker with equipment but I do tune the best I can using bareshaft etc.and work hard to make my equipment quiet, and efficient . Back in the early 70’s I also killed quite a few animals with badly matched equipment. I know the early days were glamorized but there’s a lot of stories of bad hits and shooting long distances, I think they relied on big fletching as did I, to help with arrow flight, there wasn’t any internet, YouTube or DVD’s or much printed material on tuning or anything for the average new hunter to help , if you didn’t have a competent mentor you were on your own to figure it out. I know I had no idea about  matching equipment but managed to kill a few and to be honest I lost a few as well, that losing them due to poor hits or penetration, drove me to doing it better so I searched out a mentor.
   I know some folks really take it to the next level but as far as I’m concerned I don’t think I’m over thinking things . I’m a big fan of keeping things simple and if I find something that works, I stick with it, regardless of the newest and best broadhead , bow or arrow shaft .

[McDave]

What's one person's overthinking may be another person's favorite way of passing the time.  Most of us aren't making any money doing this, and those that are aren't making a whole lot.  Isn't the bottom line just to shoot the bow in the way that brings you the most enjoyment?  Face it, we're so far outside of mainstream American culture that we might as well be catfish noodlers, and most of us like it that way.  There's a lot more things that we have in common with each other in our remote little corner of the universe than there are dividing us, if we choose to look for them.

[woodchucker]

All these fine comments, make me smile!!!

This is what I was hoping for, Traditional Archery is a journey... Enjoy the ride!!!
How we get there, is how we get there. We are all individuals. We do what works for US!!
All of us here, try to pass along our knowledge, to the newcomers.

But, we must remember...  What works for US, may not work for them... We are all individuals.
They must also understand, that just because we suggest something, doesn't mean that they HAVE to do it!!
Try it... If it works, GREAT!! If not, ask questions. Or, try something different?? 

Having watched my boys grow up shooting, it amazes me what the human body can do!!
Give a kid a bow, and arrows, show him a target, and let them shoot......
You will be suprized how good they get in a couple days. Then a week, months...
They know nothing about tuning, or form, they just shoot, instinctively. Like throwing a rock, or a ball.

Now... What if we could get adults to do that?? Don't think... Just shoot!!

[TSP]

It started as a 'simple stick and string and simple methods, used for hunting and self-defense' kind of mindset.  Today it's pretty much anything that technology and marketing can produce and sell under the guise of the former. 

Of course we're overthinking it.   

[Captain*Kirk]

It depends, I guess, on what you are or aren't willing to accept.
If you are shooting a whitetail broadside at 12 yards, pretty much any arrow is gonna drill it provided you have a surgically sharp, heavy enough broadhead coming off a bow of legal hunting weight or better. And if you can't hit that, you really need more practice. Did Ishi weight match arrows and points? Not likely.
Taking longer shots at 3D matches or target shooting tournaments requires more finesse and more attention to detail if you want to hit...and win...prizes.
Nothing wrong with being the best you can and tuning both bow and arrows to fly as straight and accurate as possible. But then, this IS trad. Sure, there are more accurate bows, but we won't go there...

[woodchucker]

One of the things that I personally find troubling...

We talk a lot about form. Form is very important!! Without good, consistent form, you will not be a good shooter.
BUT, one of the things I personally think is way more important, is your release.
Without a solid anchor point, and a good clean smooth release, you will not be a consistent shooter.

We have many newcomers here that have crossed over, from the compound crowd.
We welcome them all, and we all try and be as helpful as we can!! But, we must remember, it's apples & oranges.
They draw the bow, put the pin on target, and hit the release trigger. This is what they're used to.

Most of them are used to tinkering with their bows, and they understand tuning.
We give them advice, on setting up and tuning traditional equipment.
But we must remember, without a good, clean, smooth release.....
You will never be a consistent enough shot, to tune anything!!!

Just one old woochucker's ponderings

[PrimitivePete]

I would argue that consistency overrules any one form aspect. And I will also state that each person's form is dictated or should be dictated by long days of practice and experimentation and not give to idol worship. I know guys who can do the greatest Fred Bear imitation and can't hit the side of a she shed.

[GCook]

I'm a cross over archer.  I think many of you who have never been in the discipline of modern equipment don't understand the similarities.  Solid form, repeatable anchor point, follow through, smooth trigger control.  Without all of that you will not be a great shot.
The two biggest differences are the finger release and how much you are holding at full draw.  No one can match the smoothness of release of a mechanical release.  However I would put money on the great traditional shooters challenging even some of the great compound shooters.  Especially at unknown ranges.  And especially in hunting scenarios.

[mgf]

Mechanically simple tools are often not simple to  use well.

[McDave]

BUT, one of the things I personally think is way more important, is your release.
Without a solid anchor point, and a good clean smooth release, you will not be a consistent shooter.

We have many newcomers here that have crossed over, from the compound crowd.

Most of them are used to tinkering with their bows, and they understand tuning.
We give them advice, on setting up and tuning traditional equipment.
But we must remember, without a good, clean, smooth release.....
You will never be a consistent enough shot, to tune anything!!!

Very true.  We are our own worst enemy in this regard, even if we have never shot a compound bow in our lives.  In modern archery training, the release is not actually considered to be a separate step in the shot process.  This is on purpose, because the assumption is that if the shot is set up correctly, release will happen during expansion, without any help from us.

I can understand this thought process, because any “help” we try to give the release will ruin the shot.  However, they tell us in instructor training to never make any negative comments, so all the ways you can f**k up the release are just glossed over.  I don't know how to warn people away from all the negative inputs you can make to the release with discussing them.  I discuss them with myself whenever I have a bad release.  If I make a little backward movement with my shoulder at the moment of release, and push the arrow off target, I have to be able to recognize that I did that and not do it the next time.  Same thing in the other direction: if I ceeep the tiniest little bit at the moment of release, I will throw my shot off in the other direction.  I have to be aware of when I do these things, and how to correct them.

And yet, while I’m making these release errors, the shot process remains unchanged:  I come to full draw, anchor, expand, and hold through the conclusion of the shot, whether I push, creep, pluck, or hold my back tension without any “help” through my release.

I had to teach myself these things.  Rick Welch's advice to “hold until the shot goes off,” and USA Archery's advice that the release will happen automatically during expansion are correct.  They just don't teach you that you may think you're doing these things correctly when you're really not.

[MYoung]

Having been shooting trad bows for several decades, I have often thought that we, as a group, do overthink things. Just an example….. when I read of guys going through all sort of steps and great pains in order to get their latest single beveled sharpened to have the most ultimate edge….. when, we all know that a good file and a denim pant leg or leather strip and a little practice can have about any head hair popping sharp in short order.
I also totally understand that some folks are just geared to overthink things. And we should be glad for them. They are what pushes things forward.