Are we "over thinking" it....??

[woodchucker]

OH!! Duh.... Don't get old, kid

[Jim Jackson]

Ha! Love that thread with the archaic drawings from dial up aol. Most have no clue what I'm talking about. 

But at the time, and still now, there is a reason there are so many views. I learned a thing or two on there as well!. What a great thread of history here for so many that learned how to sharpen or perfect their game!

[mangonboat]

I am an overthinker about some stuff, an instinctive practitioner of others. When I'm hunting I study weather patterns, food sources, and usually lie awake for an hour or so in the dark weighing the pros and cons of where and how to hunt that morning. But I've got a dozen hunting bows, arrows that work with several of them, and I take 2 or 3 bows on every trip. My where and how internal debate narrows the list of choices and I typically decide which bow I'm going to hunt with while I'm lacing up my boots and I know how they shoot from practicing with them.

[TSP]

Terry, I very much enjoyed the post of your daughter shooting (may I say pointing) her bow, thanks for including them.  She does well and enjoys it...that's really the 'point' I'd say.  She also looks amazingly like my grand daughter...sweet kids, small world.

But I must disagree that shooting form is always the same, as is aptly demonstrated by watching your daughter vs. say a competitive target archer.  No person (let alone seasoned archer of any type) would with a straight face deduce by detailed comparison or first glance that there's no difference in form between those approaches.  Form is essentially a physical aspect...how you physically hold your body parts and equipment in position during the shot...which can be as different as night and day regardless of what label one might give their approach and yet still produce success.  High elbow/low elbow, hard anchor/no anchor, bend or straight, dynamic or static, etc. etc...it's a study in intricacies, all variable from person to person and with regard to eventual results.  Are their similarities in how one does it?  Many.  Is form important in the overall?  Absolutely.  Might it make a difference in one's results?  Of course.  But are the variabilities of physical posture THE most important aspect of what one must learn when first learning?  Well let's just say that question is highly debatable and leave it at that. 

There is only one simple constant that NEVER (just a simple point of emphasis) changes when addressing what they want to hit...and that is in how they perceive (aim, or point at) the target itself.  That's the true key, the ONE constant that controls the rest.  It's hard to overthink that one constant.  It's usually the other/secondary aspects of shooting (like form for instance) that can get in the way.   

I'll close by simply saying I'm not not trying to be argumentative or downplay the roll of form for determining where overthinking might be (or become) a problem.  We can both agree that it is a necessary part of shooting.  It's just that I'd hate to see folks get the idea that just because their elbow is a little high or their release is a little quick or their head is a little tilted or (etc.) they are doomed to failure brought by imperfect (however perfect might be defined) form.

Here's a useful article by G. Fred Asbell on the importance of focusing on the mark for effective traditional shooting (see Traditional Bowhunter magazine, June/July issue, 2018, 'Concentration is the Key').  It's a good read for those that haven't seen it and lends some light (from a well-known and experienced hunter) about how much impact focus/concentration can have on one's own instinctive shooting.  A nice keeping-it-simple and very informative description of his approach to the subject.

 

[mgf]

In "Hitting Them Like Howard Hill"   John Shultz talked about how Howard Hill taught. About 10:40 in the video. He said that the beginner learning form should just practice form without hanging a target on the bale because you can't learn form and try to hit a target at the same time...and he talks about how critical form is. That's my paraphrasing of course.

[YosemiteSam]

Fred Bear was a lot of things but a very savvy businessman among them.  Making things look easy is good promotions.  If it looks hard & complicated, people would ooh and ahh but wouldn't bother to actually try it themselves.  It has to be approachable to sell well.

Like any gifted athlete, what they do looks easy.  But there's a lot more going on that only practitioners can appreciate.

I was under the impression that just a few decades ago, spine wasn't really discussed much because that's what fletching was for.  Now we know just how much it can matter for both consistency and penetration.

A lot more research & practice has gone into the sport since Bear's time.  Ashby is the first to come to mind.  And a lot of people hitting the woods with all their experiences ends up refining the process far better than one genius could ever hope to do.  It's akin to all those hospital patients who have died over the years to medical error that has given us the benefits of modern medicine.  And all those airline passengers who have died in crashes that have made airlines so safe today.  Yea, kudos to the Wright brothers but my hat's off to the (literal) fallen masses.  Fred Bear did some great things.  But all of us out in the field decade after decade has given us a wealth of knowledge & experience that he couldn't hope to match.

Then there's guys like me who spend maybe 5-10 days a year actually bowhunting vs 355 days in the back yard or on a field range.  That's a lot of time to obsess over trivial details of the shot instead of the important details of a hunt.  I wish it were the opposite.  And I'm sure if I spent more time hunting and less time shooting that I'd be way less focused on my gear.  But it is what it is.  And if I happen to get a shot opportunity on one of my few days a year to take a bow into the woods, then I really want to make sure that I don't screw up that shot.  It might be years before another opportunity comes around.

[Kirkll]

What's one person's overthinking may be another person's favorite way of passing the time.  Most of us aren't making any money doing this, and those that are aren't making a whole lot.  Isn't the bottom line just to shoot the bow in the way that brings you the most enjoyment?  Face it, we're so far outside of mainstream American culture that we might as well be catfish noodlers, and most of us like it that way.  There's a lot more things that we have in common with each other in our remote little corner of the universe than there are dividing us, if we choose to look for them.

Now that comment about "Cat fish noodlers" cracked me up. I haven't heard that term in many years, and i'll bet there are a lot of guys that don't have a clue what that is... I did it with my Dad in St Helens Oregon in the 60's. I thought he was nuts at the time too.  But.... it works!   

On topic here.... Overthinking something like arrow tuning is completely subject to each individual archers goals. Some guys say if you can group your arrows in a pie plate at 15 yards that's close enough, and go hunting. Others want pin point accuracy out to 30-40 yards and do not shoot the same spot on a 20 yard target to avoid ruining arrows..... These guys have a lot of fun fine tuning and balancing their shafts just so, and take pride in their accomplishments.

There is no right answer to this question.... Go try some noodling some time. Its a gas!   

[woodchucker]

I have very much enjoyed this thread, and appreciate the opinions and friendly debate, of all involved!!!

I was looking for "opinions" and not a definate "answer" as we are all individuals!!!
We each do what we do, because it works for US!!

I was up here at the new house "off the grid" with lots of time on my hands, LOL!!
One of the things I had was the Fred Bear DVD collection. I watched the entire collection many times.
One of the things I noticed, was the BOXES of arrows that Fred brought with him on his trips.
They would shoot at stumps, small game, and Big Game.... They did a LOT of shooting!!
I watched one of Fred's partners (I believe it was Glen St.Charles?) Shoot & break 7-8 arrows trying to shoot a spruce grouse on a rocky hillside. Fred had a 3-4 arrow bow quiver on his bow, but he also had a saddle quiver hanging from the saddle horn with about a dozen arrows in it.

Now I believe that all of their arrows were spine matched to their bows. BUT, I find it hard to believe that EACH ARROW was "tuned"... My personal opinion, is that Fred had the confidence in his manufacturing, (and his shooting) to just pack several dozen appropriatly spined arrows, for his trip. If he lost or broke one, he had more...

Hense, the "Are we over thinking it" title. THANK YOU, for all of your responses!!!

[Wudstix]

Reading through several of the older books, I see no mention of "tuning arrows".  I think they just wanted arrows that flew straight.  Many shots were taken rather quickly, and straight flight not necessarily precision, was more important.  I'm certain they didn't pack a grain scale along on those trips.  Just put the best sharp head they had back on an unbroken shaft and went on.
 

[GCook]

I believe that everyone in the past did the best they could with what they had to work with.  The science of everything has increased over the centuries. 
Knowing one can improve on something is a driver for many people.  Personally I want to do the best I can at whatever I choose to do.  Sometimes a hammock and light weight bag is a better choice than a full tent set up.  Sometimes a travel trailer is the best option.
I believe most will do what works for them and that's exactly what should happen. 

However I in no way believe Fred Bear said ah, it's good enough.  Or else his line of equipment wouldn't still be a standard in the industry.

[woodchucker]

Very TRUE, Gary!!!!

Fred was Mechanical Design Engineer....
They had an interview with him on the history of Bear Archery. One of the funniest stories he told, was him going on a bear hunt, with one of the new compounds that they were producing at that time.

Fred was a "self taught" archer, and as he described, a "snap shooter"
He would focus on the target, draw, and soon as he hit anchor, release....
He explained, that if he missed, he couldn't just try again and aim higher. All he could really do, was just pull it back a little farther.... On his bear hunt with the compound, every time the cams rolled over and let off, he would lose everything!! He couldn't hit anything...
He ended up killing a bear, by putting a sight on his bow!!

He developed his Kodiak T/D because on a trip to Alaska, his bow and equipment, went to Seatle...
Being the only left hander in the party, he couldn't bow hunt and ended up using a rifle.
He developed the T/D because he wanted a bow that would come apart, and fit under a plane seat.
Fred was always trying to make things better!! But, back in the day....
They did the best they could, with what they had!!

[TSP]

I think that both Fred and Howard knew the importance of keeping it simple in the overall, to not 'overthink it' on their way to learning or teaching others how to shoot.  Mgf references John Shultz's video a few posts back and rightly indicates how important Hill/Shultz thought form was/is to their shooting.  But interestingly, if you go to that same video tape at the 31:02 mark you can listen to Shultz himself make the point about accuracy on game, as follows (emphasis added here for making this critical point...again): 

"The single most important thing that you can remember when you're shooting at a game animal is to concentrate on the spot."   JOHN SHULTZ

I suppose t's a little like the chicken and the egg scenario but in this case one of the two definately comes first.  If one wishes to learn or teach others how to shoot in a simple and effective style that begins at the actual beginning, don't forget to first pick a point of focus to 'bore a hole through' before worrying too much about intricate body-based form components.  You'll find it much easier to develop the latter if you start with the former.  Good shooting to all.   

 

[woodchucker]

If I may add.... I think we can all agree, that form and shooting, go hand in hand.

What I was talking about by "overthinking" was actually "tuning"
We have many new members here, crossing over from the "compound community"...
Tuning and maintaining a compound bow, is a constant state of tinkering. (IMHO)
There is only so much that you can tinker with on a traditional bow. So, we do the basics, then switch to ARROWS...
I do not bare shaft. Never have... I have shot the same broadheads, since I was a kid.
Old green Bear Razorheads, or 125gr Zwickey Eskimos.

The Zwickey Eskimos and my 125gr field points, have ALWAYS flown the same!!
I don't practice with the Razorheads, because they don't make them anymore! 
This year, I switched to 135gr Zwickey Deltas, to match my 135gr Judos....
So far, I have been VERY pleased with the performance of both!!! BOTH hit in the same spot EVERY time!!!

As far as arrows are concerned, there are as many types, weights, and spines of shafting, as there are types and weights of points and broadheads. Let's not to forget insert and adaptor weights, and fletching!!
If someone wanted to tinker and tune.... They could spend months, even years, on arrows!!

My point is.... (This is just one old fart's opinion)

For the "newbees"... Let's help them keep it simple!!!
A good bow that they can afford  and shoot comfortably...
A MATCHED set of arrows, spined correctly for that bow...
A shooting style they are comfortable and consistant with... (split-finger? 3-under?)
THEN, get them shooting!!! Close at first, and YES! ALL arrows in a paper plate, is good for a beginner!!!
Let's help them learn to SHOOT first!! The tinkering and tuning, will come later...

It's just human nature

[Terry Green]

"The single most important thing that you can remember when you're shooting at a game animal is to concentrate on the spot."   JOHN SHULTZ

Yep, after you learn to shoot,  you work out the *simple* mechanics in practice. I would add that bale work to that practice for the fastest way to nail down the magic T.

Like I said earlier, on game I don't even remember drawing the bow.... its all ingrained.

TSP, You got any vids of yourself you can post?

[charles m]

"The single most important thing that you can remember when you're shooting at a game animal is to concentrate on the spot."   JOHN SHULTZ

Yep, after you learn to shoot,  you work out the *simple* mechanics in practice. I would add that bale work to that practice for the fastest way to nail down the magic T.

Like I said earlier, on game I don't even remember drawing the bow.... its all ingrained.

TSP, You got any vids of yourself you can post?

Agreed.  The form clock says it all pretty much.  Form is from the waist up and should be very close to the same for everyone.  One must practice and perfect before play.  Its essential to have the fundamentals down pat before the game begins or you are doing yourself and the game a disservice. It's not complicated, but its certainly not blase' either. 

Great thread btw guys.

[TSP]

"TSP, You got any vids of yourself you can post?"  Terry Green

No Terry, taking pictures of myself has never been on my bucket list.  An old laptop is my techno-connection...I don't even own a smartphone let alone a video camera.  Does a TracFone count?   

Keeping life simple does have it's virtues.   

[JohnV]

Maybe we are “under thinking” it!

[Terry Green]

TSP, thx, that answers a lot of questions.

[Bamboozle]

I've been monitoring this thread and enjoying it. I only have one question.  How is filming one's self to show what they are taking about a 'bucket list'?  I mean that's not even close to the meaning of the phrase.

[GCook]

I've been monitoring this thread and enjoying it. I only have one question.  How is filming one's self to show what they are taking about a 'bucket list'?  I mean that's not even close to the meaning of the phrase.

I'm not sure but I will say my new phone having the slow motion video is pretty cool to use.  I plan to utilize it on helping my shooting.