Taper change61 in. Recurve

[Mad Max]

Dang 

[Shredd]

The speed and performance of your limbs is completely dependent on preload string tension at brace that stops mass weight of the forward limb travel clean and transfers the stored energy to the shaft. Your actual limb travel distance plays a big part in this too….

[/quote]

  I only find the string tension part partially true...  With some designs string tension and performance run hand in hand only so far...  Once you get up to a certain performance level other factors like how the limb is bending (that may include your limb travel you talk about) and delivers that arrow become more crucial than string tension...  I have built bows with a lower (percentage wise) string tension that were faster than a bow with higher string tension... 
   
   I too thought the more string tension the faster the bow... Until I built a bow with an amazing amount of string tension but was slower than my other bows...  It was an eye opener...  I could write a couple of chapters on Performance and how ST and DFC's are related to it, but on this site most are uninterested in the science and numbers part of seeking top performance... Matter of fact in other bow making groups and sites I have found only one person that has an accurate DFC and is not sure how to use it or understand it... And no one wants to know either...     I guess because it is homework and no one likes to do their homework...   

    For best performance I am a firm believer that everything has to be taken into account... There is no magic bullet like string tension and DFC's...  They are great methods and tools and I definitely believe in using them but they only get you about 80 to 90% there... The rest is finding the balance of all of the above...  The last 10 or 20% is about experimenting...  Tweaking the limbs ever so slightly this way and that... You will find it will take you away from the best numbers in ST and DFC's (or what you thought were the best numbers) but your performance will go up...  This may be a bad analogy but compare it to timing on a car...  On paper and in your mind TDC is the way to go...  All the math and the numbers say so and it makes total sense but the right thing to do is set your timing a number of degrees before TDC...  An uneducated person would only find this out by trial and error and fooling with the timing...  So use string tension and DFC's to find the TDC and from there tweak your timing for best performance...   

   But what do I know... There may be designs out there that string tension and performance run hand in hand all the way to peak performance...  There is so much out there and I feel that I only scratched the surface...  But this is the experience that I have had with building bows and chasing top performance and I feel you may find this to be true with most bows... 

[Mad Max]

Good Info. guy's

[onetone]

I’m going to toss this into the conversation to keep things interesting, but not to contradict anything which has been said so far. This is a quote from Ottoman Turkish Bows by Adam Karpowics:

“We can now summarize the design characteristics of a fast bow … 1.make it as short as possible and the limbs including the bending section as thick and as narrow as possible 2. draw as far as possible 3. reflex the limbs as much as possible 4. keep the bending as close to the grip as possible for the longest limb path.”

Such recommendations make for serious string preload, crazy finger pinch and what looks like major limb hinge near the grip, but these tried and tested bows deliver performance.

[Mad Max]

I’m going to toss this into the conversation to keep things interesting, but not to contradict anything which has been said so far. This is a quote from Ottoman Turkish Bows by Adam Karpowics:

“We can now summarize the design characteristics of a fast bow … 1.make it as short as possible and the limbs including the bending section as thick and as narrow as possible 2. draw as far as possible 3. reflex the limbs as much as possible 4. keep the bending as close to the grip as possible for the longest limb path.”

Such recommendations make for serious string preload, crazy finger pinch and what looks like major limb hinge near the grip, but these tried and tested bows deliver performance.

May or may not translate for glass bows? I don't know

[Crooked Stic]

The question was stack change from parallel limb to .001 taper.
Funny how stuff gets in a thread other than the original intent.
Soo I never was impressed by buy how fast my arrow goes out of the bow,. I have seen videos of guys shooting wheely bows that deer have jumped the string completely turned as the arrow flew over their back.  Not saying a quite bow that is fast can't be had but will take one that is quite and has good manners over blistering speed.

[Mad Max]

The question was stack change from parallel limb to .001 taper.
Funny how stuff gets in a thread other than the original intent.
Soo I never was impressed by buy how fast my arrow goes out of the bow,. I have seen videos of guys shooting wheely bows that deer have jumped the string completely turned as the arrow flew over their back.  Not saying a quite bow that is fast can't be had but will take one that is quite and has good manners over blistering speed.

Pretty much every Topic with this group 

[Longcruise]

I’m going to toss this into the conversation to keep things interesting, but not to contradict anything which has been said so far. This is a quote from Ottoman Turkish Bows by Adam Karpowics:

“We can now summarize the design characteristics of a fast bow … 1.make it as short as possible and the limbs including the bending section as thick and as narrow as possible 2. draw as far as possible 3. reflex the limbs as much as possible 4. keep the bending as close to the grip as possible for the longest limb path.”

Such recommendations make for serious string preload, crazy finger pinch and what looks like major limb hinge near the grip, but these tried and tested bows deliver performance.

May or may not translate for glass bows? I don't know

Or for typical contemporary design.

[onetone]

Stic - sorry for drifting off topic. Will try to improve my aim! 

[Crooked Stic]

Your aim is fine. Me venting.
Unless your into the super curves and such (ever seen them in slow motion after the shot) most would rather have a bow with nice looking wood with good manners and quite. Most of them out there plenty fast enough to do whatever you want.

[onetone]

True enough!

No matter what one does or builds there is always somebody wanting to “race” 

[Kirkll]

The question was stack change from parallel limb to .001 taper.
Funny how stuff gets in a thread other than the original intent.
Soo I never was impressed by buy how fast my arrow goes out of the bow,. I have seen videos of guys shooting wheely bows that deer have jumped the string completely turned as the arrow flew over their back.  Not saying a quite bow that is fast can't be had but will take one that is quite and has good manners over blistering speed.

No the question went to what would he gain by going to an .002 to .003 taper….
The short answer is a torsionally unstable bow.

There are a lot of archers that say speed doesn’t matter, but higher performance flatter trajectory will always be appreciated by many archers. Especially when they can shoot lighter draw weights and still stay in the game. You can have both good manners and higher performance. Actually….. the two go hand in hand if things are balanced out right.    And…. With enough experience you can creat some beautiful works of art that will out live you by many years…..  Kirk

[Crooked Stic]

Very interested as well. I am currently building 60" 3 piece with .001 taper. 10-11 " wedge.
Been wondering what a .002or .003 taper would do and what stack to get same weights.

My thoughts were to have the middle of the working portion as the data point to compare.
Like Max stated.

I believe the more taper, the stiffer  the early portion will be, and this may be beneficial on longer limbs to keep speed up?

Don't see nothing here about what the gain would be only wanting (like me) stack change for same weight.
Done here.

[Kirkll]

Thought I typed this earlier but must not have hit Post.
Anyhow besides .001 FT I changed to .040 Gordon's black glass and it must be way stiffer than BP. 040 clr. glass. The mid working part of the limb is .003 thinner than the prll limb. Shooting for 45 and came out 57. So maybe 54 finished without any extra for weight reduction.
So nothing learned here except black is stiffer.

BP glass is a lot different than Gordon’s glass. No comparison IMO. But with that being said, each run of Gordon’s glass can vary a bit too. Best to buy in largest quantities you can, and do not mix it with a different batch.

I find if I purchase 40 -60 sticks of Gordon’s at a time, and use it as it comes off the stack it’s shipped to me, it’s more consistent.    Kirk

[Kirkll]

The speed and performance of your limbs is completely dependent on preload string tension at brace that stops mass weight of the forward limb travel clean and transfers the stored energy to the shaft. Your actual limb travel distance plays a big part in this too….

  I only find the string tension part partially true...  With some designs string tension and performance run hand in hand only so far...  Once you get up to a certain performance level other factors like how the limb is bending (that may include your limb travel you talk about) and delivers that arrow become more crucial than string tension...  I have built bows with a lower (percentage wise) string tension that were faster than a bow with higher string tension... 
   
   I too thought the more string tension the faster the bow... Until I built a bow with an amazing amount of string tension but was slower than my other bows...  It was an eye opener...  I could write a couple of chapters on Performance and how ST and DFC's are related to it, but on this site most are uninterested in the science and numbers part of seeking top performance... Matter of fact in other bow making groups and sites I have found only one person that has an accurate DFC and is not sure how to use it or understand it... And no one wants to know either...     I guess because it is homework and no one likes to do their homework...   [/quote]



I’ve read this post of yours several times trying honestly to comprehend your analogy of performance and how string tension and DFC charts are related to it.

A DFC chart is just a chart showing pounds per inch through the course of the draw. Just changing the length of a string on a bow changes both the string tension and the DFC chart a certain amount.

I’ve never seen a bow with lower string tension and preload that exceeded performance levels of higher preload bows using a 10 gpp @ 28-30” draw base for testing.   The only way I could see this happening is in a heavy draw weight D shape long bow with low ST using extremely heavy shafts like a 60@28” shooting a 1200 grain shaft. The mass arrow weight and momentum build up with the time on the string in a longer forward limb travel mitigates the string tension at brace….. this same bow would not do as well with lighter arrows.


But you are absolutely right about most guys are not much interested in spending time with the charts and numbers parts of bow building. They would rather hone their craftsmanship skills and produce some nice finished products. Others like yourself are obsessed with the testing and documentation more so than producing a finished product. I can appreciate that too. Mad scientist mode is fun from time to time….   

Id love to see a photo gallery of your finished products sometime Shredd. Maybe you could post a few reviews you have received from happy customers too. I’d especially like to see this bow design that has higher performance with lower pre load and the specs,  in all its glory.     Kirk

[Mad Max]

There is a lot of math equations on a DFC on a Excel type spread sheet.
And Shredd knows how to use it.
That is all I can say
He did his home work and built many bows. 

He doesn't like to ring his own bell so I will do it for him.
Not to bad for a guy working in a open shed
https://www.thetradlab.com/recurves

Just saying

[Kirkll]

He did his home work and built many bows. 

I'd love to see the photo gallery and customer reviews of these bows sometime. Talk of building bows, and seeing the finished product are two different things.

All i see is test results and charts on other bowyers products on that website. 

Show me the money!

[Mad Max]

Click on the link, bottom of the page , Reddbow

[Shredd]

Thanks, Max... Appreciate it...  As you can see I never speak in absolutes that would be wrong... I always say, this is what I have found with the bows that I have made or tested... Unless you are absolutely sure about something and have thoroughly tested every design out there you just don't know... To say one size fits all is a huge statement... I am here to keep the story straight... Just for the fact that I have one bow design that has a higher ST by 3 to 4 percent than an another bow design and the one with the lower ST is about 4 fps faster means that a higher ST is not directly related to a faster bow... As for other comments I will ignore those... If anyone would like to see my bows just pm me and I will send you my FB page and website...

[Shredd]

I'm not gonna get into a tug a war battle with you... Those days are over...  I said my peace and I'm done here... In the future if I hear what I think is false info I am gonna call them on it... The boys can hear both sides and decide which path to take... At least they get to hear from the other side of the coin and not just one view... And as far as you disrespecting my opinion I am ok with that now...