Perfectly stiff tune

[katman]

I have read several times about people shooting carbons way over spine. Also a post by Big Jim, who's opinions I respect, a while back also stated an arrow could be perfectly stiff. So I decided to experiment. Purchased 3 arrows each of same make in 600, 500, 400 and 350 spine. I was already 'tuned' with the 350 full length 250gr point. Bare shaft and broadheads flew to same point as fletched. After experimenting the 600 spine shaft, also full length with 250gr point also tuned very nicely. Now the 600 spine appears to be more forgiving and just as quiet although lighter. So I surmise the 350 spine must be perfectly stiff. Both of these combo's are tuned on 2 different bows, an ilf recurve and mild r/d longbow. The 500 and 400 spine shafts shot a false weak hitting right consistently, fletched and bareshaft. Even after attempting to tune out the 'weak' reaction, which is why I went to the 350 spine originally. I could probably get a 700 spine to tune by shortening but am happy with the weight of the 600 setup.

I would encourage anyone shooting stiff carbons to try lighter ones as I am very happy with how the lighter spine is shooting.

[GCook]

I shoot 340s.  Yes they are stif and tune out great.  Quiet, great penetration.  Not sure why I'd change that?

[the rifleman]

Katman, I might have missed it but didn't think I saw you set up specs.  I shoot such light stuff that I'm always using 600s, 700s and even 800s.  Your title "perfectly stiff tune" kind of rings with me.  After shooting a doe this year with excellent penetration using my Toelke 10X Whip 42#28 (40 at my draw) and Axis 700s cut to 27.5" with 175 up front, I did what I usually do---start messing with arrows.  Anyhow I played with some fletched black eagle 500s that I had already cut and fletched sitting around.  They had 100 grain outserts and I was using 125 stingers for 534 total grains.  Without a bareshaft I decided to just tune the old fashioned way---got my broadhead and field point hitting to the same point out to 30 yards.  Good enough?  Right?  Well I shot a buck with that set up---made a poor shot and spined him, my follow up arrow went through a rib and almost made it out the other side---fletchings hung a bit, but he was on the ground at that point so there was arrow ground contact.
So, I guess that set up worked well enough.  I figured--forget the bareshaft from now on, but that lasted all of two days... always messing with stuff I stripped the feathers on the shaft that went through the buck and sent a bareshaft down range at 20 yards.  The shaft showed very stiff.  Not even close to a decent tune.  It makes me wonder what I lost in that arrow's overall performance with the feathers working to correct that tune, not to mention forgiveness for a bad release.  I'm thankful that it worked out, but I should have known better than to roll the dice by skipping steps in my tuning process.
I spent another day playing with arrows and came up with an excellent bareshaft/fletched group at 30 yards using 800s cut to 27.5 with 200 grains up front.  I've added slo-mo video of bareshaft with camera at the target to get close in my barn and then move out to 20-30 yards as usual.  I don't think I will forget the bareshaft again as for me it has been the only reliable way for me to tune.  I would agree that there are a number of folks that are overspined, but I seldom see someone shooting an arrow that is underspined.

[katman]

Rifleman
ILF is [email protected], longbow 50@28, draw 29.5" Shafts are black eagle deep impact full length,32",  About 550 grain total on 600's. The 350 shaft has taken several animals mostly with 2 holes. Shooting the 600 spine for 3 days now and am very impressed that the 'fliers' I was occasionally getting with the 350 are gone and groups are tighter. I was very surprised to see a much lighter spine tune so well. I thought the 500's were going to work but nope.

I start tuning by getting a fletched shaft to go where I am looking, stright down the line, adjusting shaft spine and or center shot, gets me in the ball park. Then bareshaft tune with fletched and no fletch shafts with field points, finally switching to broadhead and field point. Honestly once I bareshaft tuned I have never had to adjust with the broadhead but I am anal about getting the bareshaft correct. I have always seemed to shoot longer arrows better so so no need to try a lighter spine.

GCook, the 350 tuned and shot well but the 600's shoot better and are just as quiet. Performance on game is yet to be determined. And they weigh over 10gpp so not light.

[GCook]

Are you shooting a plunger style rest?  There is no way that light of an arrow tunes out for me.  And my DL is only 27.5".  My bows are an eighth past center and I'm shooting 150 grain points and standard 19 grain aluminum inserts. 

[katman]

Off shelf, but strike plate is built out a bit on the ilf rig to tune same arrow as hybrid.

I agree the spine is light, I was amazed, but it shoots consistently well.

[Gdpolk]

Interesting.  I haven't heard of this before but it does make me wonder.

[Roy from Pa]

ILF bows shoot really well. If you were to put a plunger type rest on it, it will shoot so much better than shooting off the shelf.

[katman]

I agree Roy, been there, decided I wanted bomb proof so off the shelf. Tried a flipper first then a springy, shot well though the springy was a little noisy and needed help quieting it down. All depends what your willing to settle with looking at pros and cons.

[Roy from Pa]

I like the magnetic flipper rest in conjunction with the plunger button. There are some really good ones on the market. But hey as long as you are having fun, that's all that counts:).

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[katman]

I would be weary of a slight scratching sound from the plunger button drawing on a still calm day. I put a small circle of moleskin on it and replaced as needed. That is definitely a heavy duty wire.

[Kirkll]

It's amazing what you can do with different spine shafts when you have the ability to adjust center shot on an ILF rig.

I'm coming out with a ILF Sasquatch hybrid long bow limb this month. I've already taken orders for some. If this is something you would be interested in, rattle my cage bro... You've shot this Hybrid limb design before. I think they will be popular in an ILF format.   The after market Bare hybrid has gone over real well. I'm building lots of those now.   Kirk

[BigJim]

I would say that I have never said "perfectly" tuned as in that was something that was possible for anyone.. I do.. or don't understand copletely why or how people are making.. including myself at times, excessively stiff arrows shoot well.
One possible scenario is that as "instinctive" shooters, we subconsciously adjust for arrow impact. Ie, if you shoot left, left, left, your mind will subconsciously hold right to accommodate. This is all good until your mind decides it isn't going to play along.
I'm not telling anyone to change their set up, but I do believe if you find out why you aren't shooting the "correct" spine for you and you make amends, your consistency will improve. On the other hand, if you are happy with what you have, who am I to tell you to change.
BigJim

[GCook]

Jim for me, with my set up, it's not about where the arrow impact is vs me adjusting.  It's about the flight of the bare shaft and the fletched and bare shafts grouping together.  I can go a spine lighter and shorten the shaft length.  But why would I when arrow flight is right, arrow weight is right and terminal performance is right? 
Shooting a cut past center bow, a stiffer arrow go well together.  Less paradox recovery time/distance is a bonus as well.

[McDave]

  I can go a spine lighter and shorten the shaft length.  But why would I when arrow flight is right, arrow weight is right and terminal performance is right? 
Shooting a cut past center bow, a stiffer arrow go well together.  Less paradox recovery time/distance is a bonus as well.

If you have a spine lighter with a shorter shaft length, and a stiffer arrow with a longer shaft length, and both are equally well tuned, doesn't that mean that they are flexing the same in flight, and therefore have the same paradox recovery time/distance?  I prefer a longer arrow myself, because it seems more stable and easier to aim to me than a shorter arrow, assume they are both tuned for my bow.

[GCook]

Me too.

[katman]

Jim, what got me to the 350 spine was misinterpreting a false weak, Kept upping spine to get the fletched arrow going straight down the line, ie not hitting to the right. I will say it again the 600 spine results amazed me. Anyone can shoot what they want just adding food for thought to play this off season.